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Subject: Leader Death, Matching Wars and Refuge (VG Edition) rss

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BrentS
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This is one I've never quite been clear on.

Quote:
1.07.344 LEADER DEATH: .....If all of the Matching Wars associated with the Leader are removed from the deck and board the Leader is removed from play....


What is not clear to me is how you know that all of a leader's matching wars have been removed from play, given that some series of wars cross eras and may or may not be in the deck. e.g. If playing the Early Republic scenario, the 3rd Punic War may be one of the 6 cards from Middle Republic shuffled into the end of the deck but nobody would know.

It wouldn't matter if a general sits indefinitely in the Curia waiting for an ageing roll to kill him rather than being destroyed but it is relevant for interaction with the Refuge event. So if playing the early Republic scenario and Refuge is in play, would Hannibal be given refuge with another active war after defeat of the 1st and 2nd Punic Wars, or would he go to the Curia just in case the 3rd Punic War might be in the deck?

Thanks,

Brent.
 
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upandawaygames.com
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Re: Leader Death and Matching Wars
sounds like a bug introduced in the new edition...
 
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John Rodriguez
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Re: Leader Death and Matching Wars
If there is a chance a matching war remains in the deck the leader should remain in play. If there is no chance a matching war remains in the deck remove the leader.

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Steve Bachman
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Re: Leader Death and Matching Wars
Velusion wrote:
If there is a chance a matching war remains in the deck the leader should remain in play. If there is no chance a matching war remains in the deck remove the leader.

That really does not address his question at all. How does the change introduced in the new edition interact with the Refuge event? Refuge was something to be concerned with, but with your suggestion much of the teeth will be removed.
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BrentS
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Re: Leader Death and Matching Wars
Ward wrote:
Velusion wrote:
If there is a chance a matching war remains in the deck the leader should remain in play. If there is no chance a matching war remains in the deck remove the leader.

That really does not address his question at all. How does the change introduced in the new edition interact with the Refuge event? Refuge was something to be concerned with, but with your suggestion much of the teeth will be removed.


I must admit that being a newcomer to the game with the VG version, I hadn't considered that this issue might be an oversight in the transition from AH to VG versions......yet it's clear that it very possibly is.

Looking through the decks, the only leaders potentially affected are:
- Early Republic scenario - Hannibal and Hamilcar (Punic Wars); Philip (Macedonian Wars)
- Middle Republic scenario - Viriathus (Spanish revolts)

This is probably only a big issue for the Early Republic scenario, where the serious threat of Refuge for the era's major dangers, particularly Hannibal and Philip, is much reduced if they are almost always destined to end up cooling their heels in the Curia for the remainder of the game.

Brent.
 
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Luis Cortez
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Re: Leader Death, Matching Wars and Refuge
And thus you have stumbled upon the answer. This requires a thorough knowledge of what is in the deck and what is already out. You would need to know (in advance) each of the leader cards and how many cards they affect, then when the rule needs to resolve, go through the discard deck and see if all wars are already accounted for; if not, then leave him in play otherwise remove him. Perhaps a cheat card is needed detailing this?

If you are playing all three era's back to back then yes, you would leave him in the curia. If you are playing just one era,the above resolution would still apply since there is no third Punic war.
 
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BrentS
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Re: Leader Death, Matching Wars and Refuge
Civa wrote:


If you are playing all three era's back to back then yes, you would leave him in the curia. If you are playing just one era,the above resolution would still apply since there is no third Punic war.


The point of this question was that in the Valley Games edition, the Third Punic War may very well be in the last 13 cards of an Early Republic game deck.....or it may not.....and the players have no way of knowing which is the case at the point where both Refuge and Hannibal are in play and the First and Second Punic wars are defeated.

Brent.
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John Rodriguez
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Ward wrote:
Velusion wrote:
If there is a chance a matching war remains in the deck the leader should remain in play. If there is no chance a matching war remains in the deck remove the leader.

That really does not address his question at all. How does the change introduced in the new edition interact with the Refuge event? Refuge was something to be concerned with, but with your suggestion much of the teeth will be removed.


It's not rocket science to figure out if there is a chance a matching war might be in a deck... The OP figured it out and I'm confirming that hypothesis is correct.

How it compares with the old version was not part of the question.
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BrentS
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Velusion wrote:
Ward wrote:
Velusion wrote:
If there is a chance a matching war remains in the deck the leader should remain in play. If there is no chance a matching war remains in the deck remove the leader.

That really does not address his question at all. How does the change introduced in the new edition interact with the Refuge event? Refuge was something to be concerned with, but with your suggestion much of the teeth will be removed.


It's not rocket science to figure out if there is a chance a matching war might be in a deck... The OP figured it out and I'm confirming that hypothesis is correct.

How it compares with the old version was not part of the question.


It was not part of my original question but I think it's still a valid line of discussion. While I might not have realised the implications, it does seem probable that this was an unforeseen consequence of change in the game end conditions between the AH and VG editions. Having never played the AH version, I think the "soft" end point for the game with the introduction of the Era Ends card and the thematic herald of a change in the political landscape with the inclusion of some subsequent era's cards, is a great addition to the game....but it must have had a significant effect on the impact of the Refuge event.

Brent.

Edit....I've changed the topic heading to reflect that this question was about the VG edition.
 
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Jon Horne
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Tangential question: Does a Leader saved by Refuge continue to make aging rolls while waiting for a War to be drawn?

Also, according to the Errata, a Leader being sent to the Curia after ANY victory triggers Refuge, not just when all of his Wars are defeated. This makes more sense to me; otherwise Hannibal, Hamilcar, and Philip will almost never use their Refuge before the end of the game. Like Ward implied and Brent stated, they'll sit there in the Curia waiting for a Middle Era War that probably won't even happen.
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BrentS
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AxleKerrigan wrote:
Tangential question: Does a Leader saved by Refuge continue to make aging rolls while waiting for a War to be drawn?

Also, according to the Errata, a Leader being sent to the Curia after ANY victory triggers Refuge, not just when all of his Wars are defeated. This makes more sense to me; otherwise Hannibal, Hamilcar, and Philip will almost never use their Refuge before the end of the game. Like Ward implied and Brent stated, they'll sit there in the Curia waiting for a Middle Era War that probably won't even happen.


Thank you for bringing the errata to our attention. I wasn't aware of them. The rewording of Refuge doesn't bear on the original question but it certainly does address the other issues we have discussed.

Brent.
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Jon Horne
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goshublue wrote:
Thank you for bringing the errata to our attention. I wasn't aware of them. The rewording of Refuge doesn't bear on the original question but it certainly does address the other issues we have discussed.

If you follow the errata for Refuge, then the whole issue becomes quite simple. It's just like you outlined in your OP. Never discard Leaders. Always move warless Leaders to the Curia and make Aging Rolls until they die, and you don't have to keep track of what Wars have yet to come out. Leaders already in the Curia don't trigger Refuge, so it's a non-issue.

Because there is nothing in the rules or on the Refuge card to contradict it, my guess is that Refuged Leaders are still subject to Aging Rolls and the Enemy Leader Dies event.
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BrentS
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AxleKerrigan wrote:
goshublue wrote:
Thank you for bringing the errata to our attention. I wasn't aware of them. The rewording of Refuge doesn't bear on the original question but it certainly does address the other issues we have discussed.

If you follow the errata for Refuge, then the whole issue becomes quite simple. It's just like you outlined in your OP. Never discard Leaders. Always move warless Leaders to the Curia and make Aging Rolls until they die, and you don't have to keep track of what Wars have yet to come out. Leaders already in the Curia don't trigger Refuge, so it's a non-issue.

Because there is nothing in the rules or on the Refuge card to contradict it, my guess is that Refuged Leaders are still subject to Aging Rolls and the Enemy Leader Dies event.


It certainly simplifies and clarifies the whole issue greatly but I'm not sure that the statement about all leaders going to the Curia is strictly correct. In the absence of Refuge being in play, leaders in play when their last matching war is definitely defeated (e.g. Antiochus and the Syrian War in the Early Republic) should still be discarded, shouldn't they?

I realise this is entirely a matter of semantics as those leaders are functionally out of play anyway (they'll wait in the Curia until they die or the game ends) but it's an awkward and convoluted rules situation all the same.....which compounds complexity and confusion that this game doesn't need. The situation would be greatly simplified by living rules errata stating all leaders go to the Curia and are only discarded from play as the result of failed ageing rolls, and corresponding errata to the Refuge card dropping the text about leaders being discarded and only mentioning leaders going to the Curia.....which is exactly what you've said and how it functionally works but not how the rules are currently written.

Brent.
 
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Jon Horne
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goshublue wrote:
It certainly simplifies and clarifies the whole issue greatly but I'm not sure that the statement about all leaders going to the Curia is strictly correct. In the absence of Refuge being in play, leaders in play when their last matching war is definitely defeated (e.g. Antiochus and the Syrian War in the Early Republic) should still be discarded, shouldn't they?

I realise this is entirely a matter of semantics as those leaders are functionally out of play anyway (they'll wait in the Curia until they die or the game ends) but it's an awkward and convoluted rules situation all the same.....which compounds complexity and confusion that this game doesn't need. The situation would be greatly simplified by living rules errata stating all leaders go to the Curia and are only discarded from play as the result of failed ageing rolls, and corresponding errata to the Refuge card dropping the text about leaders being discarded and only mentioning leaders going to the Curia.....which is exactly what you've said and how it functionally works but not how the rules are currently written.

The rule as written works fine. I only suggested the "always go to the Curia" method as an aid to help those who were concerned about cross-era Matching Wars. There's no reason to errata a rule that functions as is, and if they did, people would (justifiably) complain about adding unnecessary dice rolls to a game that already takes all afternoon to play.
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Jon Horne
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If anyone cares, the genesis of the Refuge card errata can be traced through this old thread. After rereading it, I see that my question about Aging Rolls for Refuged Leaders was answered three years ago. Man, I'm slipping.
 
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[q="AxleKerrigan"... Man, I'm slipping.[/q]

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