Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » Recommendations

Subject: TI3 or Eclipse? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Joshua Ostrander
United States
Henrietta
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well for an in-depth answer you should check out the new podcast Dice Tower Showdown Ep 1. I personally WANT to play TI3 more, but reality puts me in the Eclipse camp.

Check it out here:
http://dicetowershowdown.libsyn.com/webpage
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joshua Ostrander
United States
Henrietta
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also you can see the results in this geeklist:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/162440/dice-tower-show...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Boyll
United States
Kuna
Idaho
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Exodus: Proxima Centauri.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Ladson
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Looks like TI:3 slightly edges out Eclipse in the polls, but it is close enough that it is very polarizing matchup. I happen to adore the idea of TI3, but the prospect of finding at least 3 other guys willing to dedicate the time and effort is daunting to say the least. Quite frankly, it seems the only people willing to do that are people who would rather play some grognardy historical miniature wargame instead.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TI blows Eclipse out of the water. It's got everything. Eclipse has almost nothing.

I'm looking forward to Hegemonic. I'm hoping it's an acceptable option for a shorter TI.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Les Marshall
United States
Woodinville
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
TI blows Eclipse out of the water. It's got everything. Eclipse has almost nothing.

I'm looking forward to Hegemonic. I'm hoping it's an acceptable option for a shorter TI.


I'd play Eclipse over TI any day.

I've owned and played TI, TI:2 and T:3. Sold TI:3 about a year ago and no one in my group has any interest in the game. It' isn't horrible it just isn't satisfying enough to warrant the HUGE time it takes to play.

Eclipse is a shorter game and has a very novel economic system. As your empire expands you become less nimble which translates to fewer actions available. Balancing your systems between income, ore and science takes a little noodle work than does TI:3.

Plus, you can often play Eclipse twice or more in the span it takes to play TI.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Scottgun wrote:
Looks like TI:3 slightly edges out Eclipse in the polls, but it is close enough that it is very polarizing matchup. I happen to adore the idea of TI3, but the prospect of finding at least 3 other guys willing to dedicate the time and effort is daunting to say the least. Quite frankly, it seems the only people willing to do that are people who would rather play some grognardy historical miniature wargame instead.

I have absolutely no interest in war games, but I've got 40+ plays of TI3 under my belt.


I enjoy Eclipse, but I love TI3. Most of our TI3 group has played Eclipse, and most prefer TI3.

I'm not a fan of the random techs in Eclipse. I find a bad start (ie bad tiles) in TI3 is usually a bit easier to work with than a bad start in Eclipse. TI3 has a much better political side to the game, and a lot more negotiating and such. I also prefer the defined (but variable) objectives for gaining points in TI3 to the more rigid VP collection in Eclipse.

One disadvantage to TI3 is that I'd strongly recommend getting at least the first expansion to go with it (or modify one of the strategy cards to its expansion form).

Another thing to consider is that Eclipse is very much a 'euro-ized' 4x game. If you (or your group) have a strong preference for Euro games, then Eclipse is probably the better option. If Ameritrash is more your thing, look at TI3.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adria wrote:
Another thing to consider is that Eclipse is very much a 'euro-ized' 4x game. If you (or your group) have a strong preference for Euro games, then Eclipse is probably the better option. If Ameritrash is more your thing, look at TI3.


This is exactly where Eclipse fails me in a big way. I hear so many people saying Euro guys will like it more. And I just don't understand that sentiment. I'm a Euro guy, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Why? Because the "Euro" elements that it tries to have are very weak and meaningless, or are duped by a dose of luck-ridden mechanics that totally pull the Euro attraction right out of it.

Some examples:

A Euro guy usually likes a good tech-tree system. Eclipse has a great one, but the draw for available techs ruins it for Euro guys because now there's no real multi-turn planning.

A Euro guy usually likes knowing what he can gain from taking certain risks. Attacking, for example. A Euro guy likes knowing that if he takes the aggressive path, builds up an army, and destroys an enemy, he will get X reward. Eclipse takes this away. So I just did a bunch of awesome things, and my reward is to draw from this bag and hope I get a 4?!...Wait, you're doing it too?!

A Euro guy usually likes being able to enter a game with an idea for a strategy. In Eclipse, what you discover in the first hour, is what will guide you down your path of choices. I hate the exploration in Eclipse. Give me a balanced, pre-built galaxy to look at as we start the game. I'll take that any day over one that has to be eXplored (this is the way I prefer playing TI3, btw, it also shaves an hour or more off playtime).

Lastly, the so-called "economy" in Eclipse is very Euro uninteresting. People see that the player boards look like, and work somewhat similarly to the TtA board and assume it must be a Euro. I remember most of the decisions on when to place and not place cubes being pretty brainless and obvious throughout the game.

I repeatedly see AT gamers saying things like "Eclipse is the first Euro I've ever enjoyed!" News flash: That's because it's not a Euro. You've been duped. It's an AT game cleverly disguised as a Euro/Hybrid.

/rant
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oliver Kiley
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
TI blows Eclipse out of the water. It's got everything. Eclipse has almost nothing.

I'm looking forward to Hegemonic. I'm hoping it's an acceptable option for a shorter TI.


I've often looked at the games this way...

Eclipse is a hybrid 4X game, euro concepts implemented with a hearty dose of luck (as mentioned above) and good dose of theme.

TI3 is grand dramatic 4X, ameritrash in some respects but also a deeper political game.

Hegemonic is also a hybrid 4x game - but it closer to being an abstract in some respects. It has a lot of euro sensibilities but has a lot more conflict that most euros (and Eclipse) would generally have. It doesn't focus on thematic details (like TI3) but instead abstracts the gameplay more telling a grander, long term story in the process.

That's my thought on the matter anyway
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
I repeatedly see AT gamers saying things like "Eclipse is the first Euro I've ever enjoyed!" News flash: That's because it's not a Euro. You've been duped. It's an AT game cleverly disguised as a Euro/Hybrid.

/rant

Maybe it just depends on what side of the spectrum you're coming from?

I think one of the biggest things that makes Eclipse feel euro-like to me is the lack of negotiation that TI3 offers. There's not much wheeling and dealing and bribing and backstabbing in Eclipse. Eclipse is just dry and bland in that department.

The player boards don't help either. They do have a euro look and feel to them, even if they aren't actually euro. The economy and resource management side of things feel euro-like, even if they aren't truly euro.

I also didn't say Eclipse is a true euro; I said it was a 'euro-ized 4x game'. I see it as a 4x game with strong euro feel.

I would think that it's an pretty effective hybrid if Eurogamers say it's not a euro and Ameritrashers say it is.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oliver Kiley
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adria wrote:
[q="thedacker"]I think one of the biggest things that makes Eclipse feel euro-like to me is the lack of negotiation that TI3 offers. There's not much wheeling and dealing and bribing and backstabbing in Eclipse. Eclipse is just dry and bland in that department.


This is a big difference between Eclipse and Hegemonic as well. One of the developers/playtesters for Hegemonic strongly felt that one of the best aspects of the game was the actual and implicit negotiation that goes in Hegemonic.

While TI3 has a more concrete political mechanic in the game, Hegemonic has a continuing stream of negotiation, largely coming out of the high levels of conflict in the game. You really can't sit back, and within 2-3 turns, everyone’s empire is all tangled up with everyone else's and the posturing and gesturing and taunting commences...

Also the Arbiter mechanic. The Arbiter plays an important role in determining turn order, and negotiating (and optionally bribing) for turn order preference can be a big part of the gameplay in Hegemonic. So, how your human-to-human negotiation strategy dovetails with the on-the-board empire building stuff is vital.


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave K
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Love 'em even if a few games get scuttled from time to time.
badge
Meow.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't played Eclipse enough to have a real opinion on it yet, but I like it well enough so far.

TI3 is just too long. I think it's a fun game, and I have enjoyed the games of it that I have completed, but I'm just not sure it's worth the incredibly large amount of time it takes to play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adria wrote:
thedacker wrote:
I repeatedly see AT gamers saying things like "Eclipse is the first Euro I've ever enjoyed!" News flash: That's because it's not a Euro. You've been duped. It's an AT game cleverly disguised as a Euro/Hybrid.

/rant
I think one of the biggest things that makes Eclipse feel euro-like to me is the lack of negotiation that TI3 offers. There's not much wheeling and dealing and bribing and backstabbing in Eclipse. Eclipse is just dry and bland in that department.


laugh

I think it's a matter of how we define Euro vs. AT.

First of all, the negotiation in TI3 is not something that makes it more AT to me. In fact, I've played more Euro games with negotiation than AT games. So we see that very differently.

Secondly, when I classify a game, I consider how the game plays over how the game looks. Components have less and less to do with deciding which games are AT and which games are not. In the past, this was an easy way to tell them apart, but many Euro games are stepping it up with their component production. It's no longer a good way to differentiate between the two. A good example of this is Mage Knight Board Game. Everything about its production value, theme, and genre, is AT. But the game play itself is driven by hand-management and deck-building. It couldn't be more Euro at its core. You don't roll dice, or flip cards to resolve battles. You study a puzzle in your hand. And to do anything else in the game, same. You study the puzzle in your hand. MK:BG is a Euro game with components that look like they came from an AT game, IMO. But again, that's because I look at the game play and its mechanics, not the components, theme, or genre.

Adria wrote:
I would think that it's an pretty effective hybrid if Eurogamers say it's not a euro and Ameritrashers say it is.



No! It has to be that I'm right, and anyone who sees it differently is wrong!

Oh, and touché.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Markus
Finland
Helsinki
Uusimaa
flag msg tools
You don't need any more.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This again?

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mezmorki wrote:
Adria wrote:
[q="thedacker"]I think one of the biggest things that makes Eclipse feel euro-like to me is the lack of negotiation that TI3 offers. There's not much wheeling and dealing and bribing and backstabbing in Eclipse. Eclipse is just dry and bland in that department.


This is a big difference between Eclipse and Hegemonic as well. One of the developers/playtesters for Hegemonic strongly felt that one of the best aspects of the game was the actual and implicit negotiation that goes in Hegemonic.

While TI3 has a more concrete political mechanic in the game, Hegemonic has a continuing stream of negotiation, largely coming out of the high levels of conflict in the game. You really can't sit back, and within 2-3 turns, everyone’s empire is all tangled up with everyone else's and the posturing and gesturing and taunting commences...

Also the Arbiter mechanic. The Arbiter plays an important role in determining turn order, and negotiating (and optionally bribing) for turn order preference can be a big part of the gameplay in Hegemonic. So, how your human-to-human negotiation strategy dovetails with the on-the-board empire building stuff is vital.


The best example of a high-conflict Euro, with constant, living negotiations is Struggle of Empires. It does it brilliantly. I've never found a game that does it better. Again, high hopes for Hegamonic in that regard.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DeePee wrote:
This again?



This picture again?
1 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adria D
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
First of all, the negotiation in TI3 is not something that makes it more AT to me. In fact, I've played more Euro games with negotiation than AT games. So we see that very differently.

True. I should probably have worded that a little better. I was speaking mostly in the context of Eclipse vs TI3. Eclipse feels very euro-like next to TI3, but it would feel very Ameritrash-like next to, say, Agricola (I know they're not comparable themes, but hopefully you get the idea).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane Larsen
United States
Salt Lake City
UT
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Adria wrote:
thedacker wrote:
First of all, the negotiation in TI3 is not something that makes it more AT to me. In fact, I've played more Euro games with negotiation than AT games. So we see that very differently.

True. I should probably have worded that a little better. I was speaking mostly in the context of Eclipse vs TI3. Eclipse feels very euro-like next to TI3, but it would feel very Ameritrash-like next to, say, Agricola (I know they're not comparable themes, but hopefully you get the idea).


Gotcha.

As you probably already concluded, when I compare the two, I see TI3 as more of a Euro experience than Eclipse. But they would both be closer to the AT pole than Agricola is. Here's a visual, just for fun:

sauron........................ECLIPSE......................|...TI3..........................................GRIC...meeple
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guido Gloor
Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern
flag msg tools
The statement below is false.
badge
The statement above is correct.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
sauron........................ECLIPSE......................|...TI3..........................................GRIC...meeple

I think it depends mostly on what aspects you compare. What makes Eclipse feel like more of an Euro than an AT game to me is the fixed number of turns, and the "I abandon my empire's wellbeing in the pursuit of last-turn victory points" vibe that its last few turns see happen.

But indeed, TI3 has many Euro elements (VP conditions, turn order mechanisms, to name a few) as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C Bazler
United States
Bronx
New York
flag msg tools
"Come, and trip it as you go..."
badge
"...on the light fantastic toe."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
thedacker wrote:
I repeatedly see AT gamers saying things like "Eclipse is the first Euro I've ever enjoyed!" News flash: That's because it's not a Euro. You've been duped. It's an AT game cleverly disguised as a Euro/Hybrid.


If AT gamers think it's a Euro, and Eurogamers think it's AT, then it's a hybrid. And neither will be happy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For the record, I'm pretty solid in the euro group, but I enjoy Eclipse.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.