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Subject: Top 12 Combinations of Characters from First two sets rss

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Ryan Goodwin
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There are 12870 unique combinations of the 16 characters from the first two sets. Of those, which combinations are the best? I did an analysis of the charactrs based upon only their movement and combat characteristics and came up with a top 12 list.

I based my analysis upon summing the total movement and combat abilities. Twelve of the 12870 combinations yeilded a top total of 60. [The base 8 have a value of 45; the P&D set have a value of 49

The list of combos is as follows:

Warrior,Cleric,Troll,Thief,Paladin,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket;
Warrior,Cleric,Troll,Thief,Paladin,ScoutElf,PickPocket,Golem;
Warrior,Cleric,Thief,Paladin,MasteratArms,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket;
Warrior,Cleric,Thief,Paladin,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket,Golem;
Warrior,Troll,Thief,Paladin,MasteratArms,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket;
Warrior,Troll,Thief,Paladin,MasteratArms,ScoutElf,PickPocket,Golem;
Warrior,Thief,Paladin,MasteratArms,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket,Golem;
Cleric,Troll,Thief,PaladinMasteratArms,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket;
Cleric,Troll,Thief,PaladinMasteratArms,ScoutElf,PickPocket,Golem;
Cleric,Troll,Thief,Paladin,Scout,Elf,Dragon,Pick,Pocket,Golem;
Cleric,Thief,Paladin,MasteratArms,ScoutElf,Dragon,PickPocket,Golem;
Warrior,Cleric,Troll,Thief,MasteratArms,Scout,Elf,DragonPick Pocket.

I have no idea if there are other 'better' combinations based upon special abilites, but from a pure movement/combat min/max approach, these are your best twelve bets.

By a similar process, there are 11 'bottom' combinations that yeild the minimum total of 40, 5 points below the value of the base eight and 9 below the value of the P&D eight. They are as follows:

Warrior Troll Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Illusionist Ghost;
Warrior Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin MasteratArms Illusionist Ghost;
Warrior Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Dragon Illusionist Ghost;
Warrior Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Illusionist Golem Ghost;
Cleric Troll Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Illusionist Ghost;
Cleric Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Dragon Illusionist Ghost;
Cleric Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Illusionist Golem Ghost;
Troll Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin MasteratArms Illusionist Ghost;
Troll Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin Illusionist Golem Ghost;
Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin MasteratArms Dragon Illusionist Ghost;
Wizard Wall-Walker Mekanork Goblin MasteratArms Illusionist Golem Ghost;

It would make an interesting game to pick the a line up from each list an play them against each other several times to see if there is truly any value in this exercise, or if the special abilities of each group tend to balance out...
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David desJardins
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I don't see any reason why Movement+Combat is a sensible way to rank characters. That's just going to get you a list of the characters with the fewest/weakest special abilities (because the characters are balanced based on their movement, combat value, and special abilities, so if you only count movement and combat the ones that will score the best are the ones with the weakest abilities).
 
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Ryan Goodwin
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Right. So how do you quantify special abilities?
 
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Samuel Miuccio
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Obviously, there is no way to quantify the special abilities, thats what makes this a game. If it were just the numbers, everyone would always take the powerhouse characters. Where the game gets interesting is using the special abilities to their fullest. This can be seen in Equal Forces, where you go back and forth drafting and then use the exact same team. i have yet to play this way, but it does sound interesting. As far as what is good, it all comes down to preference, but it does seem that there are certain "standard" characters used in team play, much like Magic:TG. When some of the other expansions hit, the game will get rreally interesting.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Actually, what this is is a list of easier/harder to play characters. The brute str/spd type thing makes it easier to manage that team than one that takes some insight into the abilities.
 
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Ryan Goodwin
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faust3672 wrote:
Obviously, there is no way to quantify the special abilities, thats what makes this a game.


Then how do you know if two sets of characters are balanced? How do we know if any of the characters are balanced? Each special ability has an impact on the game, either a way to bend a rule, break a rule, or do something special.

Even if there is no 'exact science' to quantify a charcter, there must be rule of thumb. In chess, we have the Bishop = 3 pawns, Knight = 3 pawns, Rook = 5 etc. Not exact, but a good rule of thumb. In bridge we have Ace = 4, King = 3, Queen = 2, Jack = 1, Singleton = 2, etc. Not exact, but a good rule of thumb. What is that rule of thumb for DT?

If someone where to assert that the 8 Basic Characters are totally balanced with the 8 P&D characters, then the special abilites of the Basic characters must be, on whole, better than the abilites of the P&D characters. Why? Because the Combat Total for the P&D set is 4 points higher. All things being equal, the special abilites of the basic set are 4 points better than the abilities of the new set. Thus, we have the beginnings of a rule of thumb...

Assuming the two sets are equal, and each character is equal, there should be a way to reverse engineer the value of a special ability.

 
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Robert Rossney
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Quote:
Then how do you know if two sets of characters are balanced? How do we know if any of the characters are balanced? Each special ability has an impact on the game, either a way to bend a rule, break a rule, or do something special.


Indeed it does. Your system of analysis, however, assigns each special ability a value of 0. You've identified, in essence, what would be the strongest combinations of characters if the elements you omitted from your analysis didn't exist.
 
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Mat zo
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in fact by experience, character are not balanced.

The magician with flying and the use of the fire ball, is more powerfull that the mecanork for exemple.

but DT it's 8 characters, 6 items and 8 rooms.

one character can be very usfull (like the scout elf) or important in your strategy (Red Dragon has usully a team built around him) but you must first think in group term more thant in individuel.

you can select a team with the best ratio, mouvement/combat and the most powerfull ability, you can steel lost against a better player with a team that has not the best ratio mouvement/combat/ability.

built a good team is one things, but know how to play with this team, and against your opponent team and strategy, how to adapte your strategy to the rooms placement, how to exploit the mistake of your opponent and how to avoid mitake, is more important i think.

for me the best analysis to do in DT, is the rooms one.

when you select your room, which can of room is better for a fighter or a runner strategy ?

how to adpate your strategy if your opponent had a pair of room in front of his starting line, how to adapte your strategy, if you have a pair of room in front of your starting line ?

one last thing. The number of victory point is very importante for the character selection :
in 5 VP, a good runner strategy is most of the time very effective.

with more VP, may be the goblin will become a hit, and fighters more interesting.

to conclusion :

analyse the stats and power of each character, are not enought to win a game.


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Ryan Goodwin
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UhhhClem wrote:
Quote:
Then how do you know if two sets of characters are balanced? How do we know if any of the characters are balanced? Each special ability has an impact on the game, either a way to bend a rule, break a rule, or do something special.


Indeed it does. Your system of analysis, however, assigns each special ability a value of 0. You've identified, in essence, what would be the strongest combinations of characters if the elements you omitted from your analysis didn't exist.


Yes, that is the implicit assumption, since I was just looking at what I could easily quantify.

Upon further analysis, you can suss out some of the abilites relative values to each other based upon the movement and combat characteristics of the characters.

For example:

Equivilent SAs
Regeneration = Break Wall
Break Door = Combat Skills
Levitate+Fireball = Illusions
Wall Walk = Levitate + Firebal l+ Spell Caster
Wall Walk = Illusions +Spell Caster
Wall Walk = 2 VP if Escapes
2 VP if Escapes = Levitate + Firebal l+ Spell Caster
2 VP if Escapes = Illusions +Spell Caster

Healing = Carry 2 Items + 1 CP
Healing + 1 CP = Levitate + Firebal l+ Spell Caster
Healing + 1 CP = Illusions +Spell Caster
Healing + 1 CP = 2 VP if Escapes
Healing +1 CP = Levitate + Firebal l+ Spell Caster
Healing +1 CP = Illusions +Spell Caster

This is just a beginning, but I do think there is a way to equate a special ability to a movement/combat point ability.
 
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Mat zo
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levitate = illusion !?

Levitate and Flying, are the most powerfull ability of the game, far far away from the other...
 
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Fabrice Wiels
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UhhhClem wrote:
Quote:
Then how do you know if two sets of characters are balanced? How do we know if any of the characters are balanced? Each special ability has an impact on the game, either a way to bend a rule, break a rule, or do something special.


Indeed it does. Your system of analysis, however, assigns each special ability a value of 0. You've identified, in essence, what would be the strongest combinations of characters if the elements you omitted from your analysis didn't exist.


Exactly. It's quite a stupid analysis. I can take one of the top down teams, play a game against one of the so called "best teams", and beat the crap out of you.
 
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Samuel Miuccio
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Im going to try and play moderator here. I disagree with basing the whole ranking system on pure raw numbers, because the abilities are unquantifiable. Trying to rate the ablilites and match them up with what their equivilant is is neigh impossible, therefore, in my humble opinion, is a flawed system. With all of that said, yes, being the "power gamer" that I am, one of the first tings I did was create a spreadsheet with the powers and speed raw data, much like you did. This didnt give me what characters are the best, but gave me a guide at looking at the pieces to evaluating what would work best for me. Obviously, there are numerous ways to build a team, some stronger than others. Example (Sorry, but Ive been following the expansions and base my thoughts off of the fact that there are 40 characters, not just 16 in the US), if my opponent plays all 3 dragons, which have some of the strongest raw numbers in the game, and I play a dragonslayer, the tide swings in my favor. Sort of. It all depends on my opponents play as well as how I use the item. Action equals reaction. Its funny, I used to be big into playing competative Magic, and this is really not that much different (Well, many of the luck aspects are removed). There are some components that are stronger than others, but some of the weaker components, in the right persons hands, are equally as powerful if not more. With that said, I eagerly await the tournament scene to hit here in the states. This is a great game and will lend itself very well to this setting. From reading the posts, Europe has a following and the top ranks seem respectful of each other but very competative, much as you would find in any tournament setting. Im hoping that this spills over to the states and becomes a national as well as world competition.
 
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Ryan Goodwin
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matzo wrote:


levitate = illusion !?

Levitate and Flying, are the most powerfull ability of the game, far far away from the other...


No. You missed part of it.

Levitate + Fireball = Illusion.

(Which implies that Illusion is actually MORE powerful since it takes Levitate + Fireball to compare.)

It is quite simple.

Wizard stats: 4 MP / 1 CP / Levitate, Fireball, Spellcaster.
Illusionist stats: 4 MP / 1 CP / Illusions, Spellcaster.

IF we assume that each character is balanced, then ceteris paribis, levitate + Fireball = Illusions. Q.E.D.

Now if you want to attack my assumption that each character is balanced with the other, that is fine by me, but I would hope that each character is balance some how. I think that is a valid assumption.



 
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Ryan Goodwin
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Sherinford wrote:
UhhhClem wrote:
Quote:
Then how do you know if two sets of characters are balanced? How do we know if any of the characters are balanced? Each special ability has an impact on the game, either a way to bend a rule, break a rule, or do something special.


Indeed it does. Your system of analysis, however, assigns each special ability a value of 0. You've identified, in essence, what would be the strongest combinations of characters if the elements you omitted from your analysis didn't exist.


Exactly. It's quite a stupid analysis. I can take one of the top down teams, play a game against one of the so called "best teams", and beat the crap out of you.


I wouldn't say it is stupid. Pointless maybe, but not stupid. I would say it isn't a pointless analysis, though.

The analysis isn't pointless if you assume the characters are not balanced with each other.

If they are, then perhaps we need to examine the interactions of special abilites rather than the individual characters....
 
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Yes, characters are not balanced.

but like i said, one character is only 1/8 of your team.

take character separatly is not, for me, a good way to start a game analysis.

I don't think it's stupid to start a analysis of the game, in fact i find it interesting that some player want to study Dungeon Twister.
In Europe, the analytic way to aproche the game is not realy developed.
The game creator, have a fun roleplaying game philosophy and he share it with the French community.
The only real experience and strategic aproche of the game in France, is only base on playing again and again.
some few basic rules have emerge, but not a real strong analysis, like you can find with chess and Go.

For me the most difficult part, for the moment, is to find what angle is the best to study Dungeaon Twister.

So for the moment the folowing aspect are some of the few things than we have find pertinent, in Europe, for a DT analysis :

-DT is a game with to much possibility to predict more than three or four actions in the futur.


-DT is a game based on reaction and adaptation of the action and mistake of your opponent.

beacause of that, the frist big question is : Can we find a way to theorize DT, or this game is only a matter of experience, and playing again end again and again ?

- the placement and the revelation are essentiel.

- Room position and room type are essentiel. the fact that you discover them after the begining of the game, must show you how adaptation are the most important quality of a good DT player.
For exemple : If you have a pair of room of the same color, placed in front of your opponent starting line, will you continue a running strategy or change it ?

- controling the center of the game is a good option for victory.

- the most important is not the potentiel power of your team, but the knowledge that you have of it, and the understanding of the weakness and strengh of your opponent team and the way that you can exploited it during the game.

- you must have a global strategy for your team, placement, and revelation before the game, and you must find the way to impose your strategy during the game.


 
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Good points. Perhaps it is an American trait to try to apply brute force analysis to a problem? I'm beginning to think the way to approach the team building aspect is more like deck building in a CCG like M:tG.

Also, there is a metagame aspect. If you know exactly what type of team your opponent is playing, you can craft a counter response.

So, rather than looking at each character by themselves, what character create intresting 'combo' of effects and tactics?

I'll try to approach it from that angle.
 
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OusterX wrote:
Good points. Perhaps it is an American trait to try to apply brute force analysis to a problem? I'm beginning to think the way to approach the team building aspect is more like deck building in a CCG like M:tG.

Also, there is a metagame aspect. If you know exactly what type of team your opponent is playing, you can craft a counter response.

So, rather than looking at each character by themselves, what character create intresting 'combo' of effects and tactics?

I'll try to approach it from that angle.


It's entirely possible that we approach it brute-force.

Remember also: Objects and rooms can make or break characters. If you have keys, then go with the weapon-master rather than the warrior. If you have the Fountain of Youth, then the Cleric is less important. If all of your characters fly or levitate, then you probably won't need a rope - if none of your characters fly or levitate, then at least one rope is in order. Unless you have a Thief - but she won't help you across chasms.

There's no "This is always better than that" setup in the game. I've even found the Ghost to be useful.

Eric
 
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there are three way to score in DT :

By a run

By combat

By instent kill ( fire ball, charm scroll, Red dragon, Assassin in the futur)


instent kill is the most usefull, because you gain a VP without spend a combat card, or a character (when your character leave the dungeon, you lose 1 character in play).

a good team is usualy made with a posibility to score in every aspect.

a lot of Metagame are present in the composition of a team.

with the proliferation of dragon, Dragon slayer is often use.

with futur expension, and the apparition of darkness, Angel of light or torch or light ring are play to avoid to be trap by darkness.

and you must have a strategy linked with your placement.

for exemple a strategy for you with base game and pal & drag


very offensive and agressive, but in fact its a disguise run strategy (non classical placement and strategy, but a good exemple of coherence)

runner on you starting line, like Thief, Elf scout, ghost, and cleric (to protect and heal your starting character).
Troll and golem in front line, in the room just in front of your opponent starting line.
in the room just behind the golem the goblin and the warrior(the golem can break wall to the exit for the goblin, the warrior can break door and support the goblin.
if you can place warrior and goblin in the same room, your opponent can only place 1 of is item/character, so your goblin have more chance to survive at the revelation.
try to wound or kill a maximum of character, if not lead the troll golem and warrior to the exit, with the goblin you will score 5 VP...

if one or more of your front fighter will be kill, use your runner to score.

you can play with this team, a dragon slayer, a teleport ring (in the room in front of your starting line, to help your runner to score) a treasor (in the room in front of your starting line) with the scout elf you can easely score 2 VP.
a key, a rope, a armor to take some places on room and avoid a room full of opponent item/character.

 
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OusterX wrote:
matzo wrote:


levitate = illusion !?

Levitate and Flying, are the most powerfull ability of the game, far far away from the other...


No. You missed part of it.

Levitate + Fireball = Illusion.

(Which implies that Illusion is actually MORE powerful since it takes Levitate + Fireball to compare.)

It is quite simple.

Wizard stats: 4 MP / 1 CP / Levitate, Fireball, Spellcaster.
Illusionist stats: 4 MP / 1 CP / Illusions, Spellcaster.

IF we assume that each character is balanced, then ceteris paribis, levitate + Fireball = Illusions. Q.E.D.

Now if you want to attack my assumption that each character is balanced with the other, that is fine by me, but I would hope that each character is balance some how. I think that is a valid assumption.


This is not a very good analysis. Let me explain why.

The wizard can levitate, all right, but he only has a potential ability to use the fireball wand, and it's not garanteed in any way. The wand can be taken by an opponent character, stolen by the pickpocket, or even worse, taken by the opponent wizard to burn one of your own character...

The illusionnist, on the other hand, has an ability that can be very usefull to block the way, protect herself and her teammates.

On paper, the wizard seems more tempting, more interesting, but in fact, the illusionnist is as much interesting as he is...
 
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Sherinford wrote:
OusterX wrote:
matzo wrote:


levitate = illusion !?

Levitate and Flying, are the most powerfull ability of the game, far far away from the other...


No. You missed part of it.

Levitate + Fireball = Illusion.

(Which implies that Illusion is actually MORE powerful since it takes Levitate + Fireball to compare.)

It is quite simple.

Wizard stats: 4 MP / 1 CP / Levitate, Fireball, Spellcaster.
Illusionist stats: 4 MP / 1 CP / Illusions, Spellcaster.

IF we assume that each character is balanced, then ceteris paribis, levitate + Fireball = Illusions. Q.E.D.

Now if you want to attack my assumption that each character is balanced with the other, that is fine by me, but I would hope that each character is balance some how. I think that is a valid assumption.


This is not a very good analysis. Let me explain why.

The wizard can levitate, all right, but he only has a potential ability to use the fireball wand, and it's not garanteed in any way. The wand can be taken by an opponent character, stolen by the pickpocket, or even worse, taken by the opponent wizard to burn one of your own character...

The illusionnist, on the other hand, has an ability that can be very usefull to block the way, protect herself and her teammates.

On paper, the wizard seems more tempting, more interesting, but in fact, the illusionnist is as much interesting as he is...


I think this is exactly the point of my analysis. Illusion is more powerful than Levitate, so to even out the Wizard, you need to add Fireball. I guess I didn't explain myself.

 
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with levitate, can more esaly and more directly score VP, not with illusion.

Your magician can leave de Dungeon by flying above opponent character.

Your magician can be very helpfull in group combat, evan if you opponent block the way.

illusion is powerfull, but much more difficult and complicated to play.

but once more, you can find a way to calculate the "best" characters, put them togather, you will not have the "best" team.
 
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