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Subject: Is Kickstarter ruining the hobby rss

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Michael Burke
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Let me start and say I think Kickstarter has it's place for small or startup publishers and these games with Kickstarter may never of gotten made so that is a positive and some great games have come out of Kickstarter.

But on the flipside my issues with Kickstarter are:

1) Early Bird prices. These really cheese me off. I don't think it's fair to penalise people who didn't know about the kickstarter and dangle the carrot in front of them to say you could of had it for this price but now you have to pay this price instead. I don't buy that it makes or breaks if a game gets kickstarted or not.

2) The games that change the goal posts. I looked at Dark Darker Darkest and really wanted to pick the game up then on release and then it was announced it was to be Kickstarted by Queen games. The postage costs were really poor for delivery to Europe from Germany so that was that. Then they changed the goal posts and changed to free delivery which really got me angry as I found out after the kickstarter ended. Why not set your stall out beforehand and make it a goal at least. I felt this was shoddy.

3) Taking things out to add them back in as stretch goals. Sorry Dark Darker Darkest but you spring to mind again but I'm sure other games have done it as well. The game was always designed with certain elements that were blatantly taken out of the kickstarter and put back in as stretch goals.

4) Exclusives. Especially as most games are targeted at the US market. This makes postage in most cases very expensive and the game off the list for people outside the US. We miss out on some great exclusives and some that really enhance a game. Why not make the exclusives time exclusives and make them available via resellers.
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Stephen Cooper
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No, its not.
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Charlie Theel
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The early bird prices are not penalizing people for jumping in later - they are subsidizing part of the cost so that people jump in early when stretch goals haven't been hit. They attempt to gain momentum by convincing people to jump in fast whih causes other people to gain interest because the project is off to a good start.
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Nello Cozzolino
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Kickstarter is saving the hobby !
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Andrew Laws
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I don't like kickstarter but all your complaints are complaints about how the kickstarter campaigns are run.

Just wait until the game is in stores and pick it up for way cheaper than the kickstarter users did.

win-win.
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I don't think the title matches the content of your complaint. Being annoyed at the way people use Kickstarter is not ruining the hobby.
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It's not ruining my hobby, as I don't buy games off KickStarter.
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Lee Fisher
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I think we've had these threads for the last 3 years, so yes it is already ruined. I guess we should just give up now.
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CJ
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Kickstarter is the single most interesting thing to happen to table-top gaming in the past ten years. As with most things in life it has its good and its bad. It patently isn't 'ruining' anything, though. The numerous financial transactions of its successful campaigns are hard evidence that there is capacity in the market that thus far established publishers have failed to exploit. Board gaming as a hobby is considerably more engaging since Kickstarter achieved prominence - let it continue and flourish on its merits.
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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Don't we have a thread or two about this every day? I think we do. Or at least we did not too long ago.

Charles explained the early bird prices well enough.

2) and 3) seem to be complaints against one specific campaign, at least I've never seen those things happen in other campaigns.

As for exclusives - well, they need something to convince people that it's in their interest to get the game now rather than to wait for it to hit retail. Makes perfect sense.

I'm with you in the cases when the exclusives significantly affect gameplay - powerful extra options or whatever. Nothing wrong with kickstarter-exclusive alternate art or things like that, though.
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Isaac Finkelstein
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Drittz wrote:
Let me start and say I think Kickstarter has it's place for small or startup publishers and these games with Kickstarter may never of gotten made so that is a positive and some great games have come out of Kickstarter.

But on the flipside my issues with Kickstarter are:

1) Early Bird prices. These really cheese me off. I don't think it's fair to penalise people who didn't know about the kickstarter and dangle the carrot in front of them to say you could of had it for this price but now you have to pay this price instead. I don't buy that it makes or breaks if a game gets kickstarted or not.

2) The games that change the goal posts. I looked at Dark Darker Darkest and really wanted to pick the game up then on release and then it was announced it was to be Kickstarted by Queen games. The postage costs were really poor for delivery to Europe from Germany so that was that. Then they changed the goal posts and changed to free delivery which really got me angry as I found out after the kickstarter ended. Why not set your stall out beforehand and make it a goal at least. I felt this was shoddy.

3) Taking things out to add them back in as stretch goals. Sorry Dark Darker Darkest but you spring to mind again but I'm sure other games have done it as well. The game was always designed with certain elements that were blatantly taken out of the kickstarter and put back in as stretch goals.

4) Exclusives. Especially as most games are targeted at the US market. This makes postage in most cases very expensive and the game off the list for people outside the US. We miss out on some great exclusives and some that really enhance a game. Why not make the exclusives time exclusives and make them available via resellers.


Early bird prices build momentum & buzz. The postage thing was probably them realizing they could do it later on, not planned that way. Stretch goals build momentum & buzz, & insure that the extra elements can be paid for. Exclusives are almost necessary if you want people to buy things before they exist at MSRP. Why wouldn't you just wait to buy a copy at your OLGS for 35% less if there weren't exclusives?

And the whole "ruining the hobby" is flatly ridiculous. I've never bought a Kickstarter game, probably never will (I'm thrifty), and my hobby is not ruined.
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Scott Burns
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Kickstarter broke into my house and kicked my dog. cry
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It sounds like your disgruntled because your neighbors aren't putting up their own campaigns on crowd funding sites so shipping would be less. You are complaining to the wrong people here.

Kickstarter is not the only crowd funding site. There are others. If you don't like one, go find another. That is your decision to stick with one site, not ours. If you don't like any of them, stay off of them and quit complaining. Go into a brick and mortar store like most of us and buy your games that way. The box and contents do not change there. I will warn you that the price may change if they have a sale. Early Bird prices? Oh no, here comes Black Thursday. Please don't complain about all those stores too.

Campaigns are run by their owners. If they change rules in the middle of the deal, that is their choice and pledges will be affected. They know that and choose to do it anyway. Most of the time, it is for the benefit of whoever has already pledged and an effort to incise more people to pledge.

Bimm wrote:
And the whole "ruining the hobby" is flatly ridiculous. I've never bought a Kickstarter game, probably never will (I'm thrifty), and my hobby is not ruined.
+1
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Lance McMillan
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"Sounds like sour grapes to me Will."

"That's right, Bob. We've got the tired old standbys of 'I didn't get in early enough to score the discount' and 'they keep changing the goalposts,' so his credibility looks like it's pretty much shot at this point."

"He even tried the 'I live on the wrong continent' argument, Will, and you know how well that sits with Kickstarter fans."

"I agree, Bob. I just don't see Drittz making the playoffs this year, not with performance stats like those."

"It's too bad. I thought he showed great potential in the pre-season games. Maybe next year, Will, maybe next year. And now, back to Sandy in the studio for a new ground-breaking analysis on Kickstarter fraud and rip-offs."

"Thanks, Bob."

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Paul Allwood
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I feel your pain Michael. As for ruining the hobby, I unfortunately don't think so, as the US market is so large and with many Kickstarters (even European based ones) offering them free postage and enticing additional goodies for backing, if anything, more people are getting interested in obtaining these games, especially if they have pretty miniatures.

As a fellow UK gamer (Whitley Bay actually) however, I personally do feel disenfranchised from the hobby. I used to be on the cutting edge of new releases, both buying and playing as soon as released, but like you, as I can't justify the high international postage costs, I find myself no longer able to be in the cult of the new as often, so lose out on the pleasure of being able to comment on all the new releases like I have previously. Before Kickstarter all games tended to manage to get published through the larger game publishes which had access to the major distributers and consequently release tended to be fairly simultaneous worldwide and at market sustainable prices worldwide irrespective of how actual distribution was undertaken.
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Necessary Evil
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I think it will eventually be good for the hobby.

As it is now, my problem with it is that there is so much being essentially self produced that overall quality is falling. Eventually however as the good designers either are discovered or the mainstream designers begin to use it more it is an excellent way to get games to market.

p500 and other older kickstarter like programs really helped the war game producers, I don't see why it wont do the same for all game publishers.

-M
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Tony Go
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Ask yourself if you think your reasons might possibly be considered selfish.

You start with a nice sentence about how Kickstarter effects the industry positiviely then proceed to talk a lot about how its effecting you you you as an individual.

I mean no harm, but I hear this sentiment a lot in many other industries as well.
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Steve Duff
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charlest wrote:
The early bird prices are not penalizing people for jumping in later - they are subsidizing part of the cost so that people jump in early when stretch goals haven't been hit. They attempt to gain momentum by convincing people to jump in fast whih causes other people to gain interest because the project is off to a good start.


Of course it penalizes later backers (where "later" is often defined as "not in the first few hours").

Penalizing backers may not be the intended goal, but it is the direct result.

Your money is just as good as mine, why should you pay more for the same thing?
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Allen OConnor
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I can confirm: kickstarter is not ruining the hobby.
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Tony Go
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The whole "early bird" thing is not intrinsic to Kickstarter. Kickstarter itself is not the cause of early birding.

I don't believe its right and I didn't use one in my Kickstarter campaign where if I did I probably would've had more success. The idea for early birds builds that early activity which gives your game more promotion on Kickstarter. It's a "gamed" system that works because people do it.

Your wallets speak louder than words- unfortunately it mostly speaks in favor of practices, rather than against them.


On the brighter side, we are starting to see now a lot of games post-kickstarter and entering retail. Often times these games are much much cheaper than thier price was on Kickstarter. So there you go, wait and get it cheaper.
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Brent Mair
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No. Nope.

1. Early Bird Prices. I don't like them either and I'm not sure that they help the campaign. Possibly since they create some buzz quickly.

2. Changing Goal Posts. Doesn't happen often but certainly irritating and often the wrong thing to do.

3. Taking things out to add them back. This is an edge case that we still don't understand. There are plenty of assumptions from people that don't understand economics.

4. Exclusives. Bad idea, I don't like them.

Certainly minority issues though
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Michael Burke
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Just to point out the title is a question not a statement and I vaguely remember saying Kickstarter has it's good points and bad points to people saying it's just a whine at KS.

Kickstarter does seem to be US centric to the detriment to others outside the US so maybe gamers in the US think Kickstarter is the best thing since sliced bread. There are games out there that kickstarter has really worked well for but others not so good.

The game I mentioned just seems like the retail version isn't the version the designer had in mind and to get the complete game you had to kickstart it. The retail version is missing characters which I can only see as a bad thing. Whilst they changed the shipping to free, initially it wasn't again making getting the kickstarter to non US and German buyers very expensive and felt you had to to get the full game.

I see the point about exclusives again forgetting that the US pays significantly less for games than the UK for example so in most cases games from Kickstarter can be bought for a lot less on general release. We tend to pay inflated RRP or very near it in most cases.


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I follow games on KS, but I never fund them. Rather, I wait for them to prove that they can convince retailers to carry their product. No shortcuts through the gauntlet.
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Alan
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I can't afford to go to Essen, see the brand new hotness and buy it before it reaches wider release. Therefore, I am disenfranchised and deserve to be awarded a shiny, new pony (no used ponies for me!).

More on point - Nope, not ruining the hobby. If anything, KS is helping it grow. And more people playing games = more $ in the industry = more games! (WOOT!)
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Ralph T
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SpaceLordOO wrote:
Kickstarter broke into my house and kicked my dog. cry


Funny, I was also thinking Kickstarter had kicked my dog.
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