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2 de Mayo» Forums » Rules

Subject: Too many cards: cannot draw or may be prevented from drawing? rss

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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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If my opponent has 4+ more cards than me, can I choose to allow him to draw?

If he has 3 more cards and I don't want to draw, can I choose to allow him to draw?

From a literal reading of the rules, I would answer yes to the first question and no to the second, but this seems inconsistent…

Rule quotations are welcome!
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Yoki Erdtman
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See this thread.

lebigot wrote:
If my opponent has 4+ more cards than me, can I allow him to draw?

If he has 3 more cards and I don't want to draw, can I allow him to draw?

The same answer applies to both questions: Yes, but only if you draw a card yourself.

You may want to peruse the 2 de Mayo FAQ for further rules queries.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Yokiboy wrote:
See this thread.

lebigot wrote:
If my opponent has 4+ more cards than me, can I allow him to draw?

If he has 3 more cards and I don't want to draw, can I allow him to draw?

The same answer applies to both questions: Yes, but only if you draw a card yourself.

You may want to peruse the 2 de Mayo FAQ for further rules queries.
Thank you for your feedback. However, I did check both this and the rules, and I understand that they together contradict your answer at least partially and validate my original interpretation (which looks strange to me), so I'd be happy to continue the discussion.


In the case of a 3 card difference, let's take for instance the rules:
Quote:
If a player has exactly 3 less cards than his opponent, he either draws a card (and his opponent can draw a card) or denies his opponent the benefit of drawing a card.
says that if I draw a card I don't choose to "allow" my opponent to draw, but he has instead the right to do so (I'm nitpicking about your "Yes [allow], but only if you draw a card yourself").

As for the rules on the case of a 4+ card difference:
Quote:
If one of the players has three less (or four, or five less, etc.) cards than his opponent, that player can deny his opponent the option to draw a card.
and the FAQ:
Quote:
if your opponent has 3 or more cards than you, you can prevent them drawing a card, regardless of whether or not you happened to draw a card.
So, if I have 4+ cards less than my opponent I can choose to allow him to draw. There is no "only if you draw a card yourself", no?

There is more generally some serious confusion on such questions here on the Geek (and in my head), on two points:

1) If I have 3 cards less than my opponent, the rules, the FAQ and summary rules (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/50814/2-de-mayo-quick-..., http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/39060/2-de-mayo-player...) seem to say that if I don't draw then I must forbid my opponent from drawing ("If a player has exactly 3 less cards…"). However, this is contradictory with another part of the rules: "If one of the players has three less (…) cards than his opponent, that player can deny his opponent the option to draw a card.".

2) I have 4+ card less than my opponent, can I allow him to draw? The rules and the FAQ say "yes" unambiguously ("If one of the players has three less (or four, or five less, etc.)…"), but the two main rules summary sheets above say "no".

So, I'm really confused.
shake

If I had to guess the correct rule, I would choose some unified, simple version like:
Quote:
If your opponent has 3+ more cards than you, you can choose to forbid him to draw. This rule applies at all times during the Preparation phase, so if your opponent has 3 more cards than you and you draw, then he can draw.

This addresses explicitly both the question of whether the player with fewer cards can allow his opponent to draw, and the question of whether the 3-card difference case follows a different rule (must prevent a draw) or not. However, is this the correct rule?

What do you guys think?

Help!!!
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Mark Evans
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lebigot wrote:
If my opponent has 4+ more cards than me, can I choose to allow him to draw?


Sure.

Quote:
If he has 3 more cards and I don't want to draw, can I choose to allow him to draw?


Sure.

Now I have the English rules from Gryphon Games, which I noticed are different from the FAQ and online rules. Mine say "...one of the players has three (or more) fewer cards than his opponent, that player can deny his opponent the option to draw."

Then the clarifications kick in, but it seems like the principle is that there are options available to each player.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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drmark64 wrote:
Now I have the English rules from Gryphon Games, which I noticed are different from the FAQ and online rules. Mine say "...one of the players has three (or more) fewer cards than his opponent, that player can deny his opponent the option to draw."
Thank you for your help! I agree that this is quite unambiguous (so the playing aids I quoted are probably wrong on this).

A problem though is that the same rules also read
Quote:
If a player has exactly 3 less cards than his opponent, he either draws a card (and his opponent can draw a card) or denies his opponent the benefit of drawing a card.
which means, if I understand correctly, that if I have 3 less cards than my opponent I must deny him the benefit of drawing a card. "Must", not "can". I guess that the author meant "can deny" instead of "denies": a confirmation would be great!
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Russ Williams
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lebigot wrote:
A problem though is that the same rules also read
Quote:
If a player has exactly 3 less cards than his opponent, he either draws a card (and his opponent can draw a card) or denies his opponent the benefit of drawing a card.
which means, if I understand correctly, that if I have 3 less cards than my opponent I must deny him the benefit of drawing a card. "Must", not "can". I guess that the author meant "can deny" instead of "denies": a confirmation would be great!

I agree it seems unintentionally ambiguous/misleading. But in practice, if you were choosing not to draw a card, why wouldn't you want to deny your opponent a card draw. I.e. the literal interpretation is forcing you to do something which you'd surely want to do anyway, right?

Oh, or are you thinking about the chance that the French player might draw one of the couple of French cards which actually help the Spanish? OK. I guess that would be the only obvious reason I can think of to NOT want to deny the opponent their card draw. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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russ wrote:
Oh, or are you thinking about the chance that the French player might draw one of the couple of French cards which actually help the Spanish? OK. I guess that would be the only obvious reason I can think of to NOT want to deny the opponent their card draw.
Exactly what I had in mind!

Thank you for your feedback, too.


Dani, the designer, told me he would chime in this week, so we'll have a definitive answer soon.
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Daniel Val
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Guys, I'm pretty busy to have time to read the whole thread and Eric demands my intervention here. I'll try to make things simple.

Player A holds n cards. Player B n+3 (or n+4, +5..). Player B says he wants to draw a card. Player A has the option to cancel that, because he has three less cards. He is not forced to do so, but he could do it if he wanted, no matter if he's French or Spanish.
Should player A draw a card himself (thus player B would only hold n+2 cards), then player B would again be able to draw a card in that same turn if he wanted.
Ideally all phases in 2 de Mayo are simultaneous.

Sorry if I missed any subtleties. I am really busy these days. If what I'm saying has any real problems, let me know. I'll see what I can do.

In any case, I believe once a game is out there, my word as original designer is no longer any more valid than what wiser and more clever people here might come up with!
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Daniel Val
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Also, you could always let your opponent draw a card if you want, no matter if he has many more cards than you. A player is not forced to deny the opponent that option.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
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Thank you for these explanations, Daniel. They correspond to what Russ and I were understanding. It's good to have a confirmation from you.

I will contact the authors of the playing aids I mentioned above so that they fix them.

I actually think that you are wiser than me when it comes to the game you designed, because you developed it and know it much better, so your input is very much appreciated.
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