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A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Winter is Coming rss

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Stuart Green
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The Westeros card reference for 'Winter is Coming' states:

Quote:

Shuffle this Westeros deck (including this card) and draw another card. Resolve this card, including possible Wildling icons. Repeat if 'Winter is Coming' is drawn again.

In our games we have always assumed the 'deck' to include cards that have already been played in previous rounds. So, effectively, WiC 'resets' the probabilities of other cards appearing.

But I just came across this 'official' response in another thread (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/864569/the-reader-greyjo...) referring to the Reader house card in the Dance with Dragons expansion:

Quote:

The Reader's card refers to the Westeros "deck". The deck consists of cards that have not yet been used. Those that have been used are considered in the "discard pile".

If this is correct then we have been playing WiC wrongly.

However, if this is the case then what is the point of WiC? It has no effect and we might as well throw the WiC cards out.
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Adam McLean
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I think WiC means that the entire deck is shuffled back together as it doesn't specify anything except the deck, whereas the Reader says "Shuffle the remaining cards" (italics mine), implying that the card chosen is drawn from what's left.

Granted, it's a little ambiguous, but I believe the intent is there.
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Stuart Green
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oatesatm wrote:
I think WiC means that the entire deck is shuffled back together as it doesn't specify anything except the deck, whereas the Reader says "Shuffle the remaining cards" (italics mine), implying that the card chosen is drawn from what's left.

Granted, it's a little ambiguous, but I believe the intent is there.

Well the Reader card says:
Quote:

...you may search any Westeros deck for a card of your choice. Shuffle the remaining cards and place the chosen card facedown on top of the deck.

'Remaining cards' refers to the cards in the deck other than the one you are choosing, not the set of unplayed cards.

So if deck means all the cards, then the official response is wrong. Otherwise, 'Winter is Coming' is totally redundant.
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Paul Evans
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n4blue wrote:
The Westeros card reference for 'Winter is Coming' states:
Quote:

Shuffle this Westeros deck (including this card) and draw another card. Resolve this card, including possible Wildling icons. Repeat if 'Winter is Coming' is drawn again.

In our games we have always assumed the 'deck' to include cards that have already been played in previous rounds. So, effectively, WiC 'resets' the probabilities of other cards appearing.

If this is correct then we have been playing WiC wrongly.

However, if this is the case then what is the point of WiC? It has no effect and we might as well throw the WiC cards out.

Exactly - what would the point of Winter is Coming be? If the reshuffle was limited to only those cards not yet played then it would not reset the probability of the deck. Indeed there might as well be only the 9 cards.

And rather frustratingly - at the start of round 10 you may repeatedly shuffle your two remaining cards - as every game that reaches this point would have a 50% chance of Winter is Coming - which would be astonishingly stupid as such an interpretation would mean that you had to play the remaining card.

Regardless of official interpretation Winter is Coming means - for me - to reshuffle the whole deck. and anyway I like the probability resetting from time to time.
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Amin
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oatesatm wrote:
I think WiC means that the entire deck is shuffled back together as it doesn't specify anything except the deck, whereas the Reader says "Shuffle the remaining cards" (italics mine), implying that the card chosen is drawn from what's left.

Granted, it's a little ambiguous, but I believe the intent is there.


Correct, I think intention is what matters here. I don't think the Reader ruling was intended to overrule anything in regards to winter is coming, it was just to clarify an important question on how the Reader was to be played.

My hunch is that if Winter is Coming was meant to be played this way, it would have been pointed out sometime earlier. One of the complaints about the base game 1st edition was that sometimes entire games went without a muster or supply (one of them). Unless winter is coming shuffles all cards in the deck, it seems odd that this would ever be a problem (and that consolidate * or expansion one time orders would be developed to counter this).

That being said, the winter is coming card could still serve a function, even if it only shuffles the remaining cards. What it does is inject a little uncertainty into the turn, because the card is not resolved until you get to it. Which for deck 2 or 3 prevents you from knowing what happens until you get there (but then serves absolutely no function for deck 1).
 
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Radosław Michalak
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Sabzevarian wrote:
That being said, the winter is coming card could still serve a function, even if it only shuffles the remaining cards. What it does is inject a little uncertainty into the turn, because the card is not resolved until you get to it. Which for deck 2 or 3 prevents you from knowing what happens until you get there (but then serves absolutely no function for deck 1).

But there is no WiC in deck III
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Amin
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Radziol wrote:
Sabzevarian wrote:
That being said, the winter is coming card could still serve a function, even if it only shuffles the remaining cards. What it does is inject a little uncertainty into the turn, because the card is not resolved until you get to it. Which for deck 2 or 3 prevents you from knowing what happens until you get there (but then serves absolutely no function for deck 1).

But there is no WiC in deck III


You are right, 2nd edition doesn't have it anymore. However, in terms of tracing the rule history, there was WiC in deck III, 1st edition. Either way, there's no explanation for why WiC would be in deck 1 but serve no actual function there. It makes more sense that it served the same function in all three decks (and now the 2 decks it appears in).
 
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Radosław Michalak
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Sabzevarian wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Sabzevarian wrote:
That being said, the winter is coming card could still serve a function, even if it only shuffles the remaining cards. What it does is inject a little uncertainty into the turn, because the card is not resolved until you get to it. Which for deck 2 or 3 prevents you from knowing what happens until you get there (but then serves absolutely no function for deck 1).

But there is no WiC in deck III


You are right, 2nd edition doesn't have it anymore. However, in terms of tracing the rule history, there was WiC in deck III, 1st edition. Either way, there's no explanation for why WiC would be in deck 1 but serve no actual function there. It makes more sense that it served the same function in all three decks (and now the 2 decks it appears in).

That's of course right.
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Stuart Green
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Sabzevarian wrote:

That being said, the winter is coming card could still serve a function, even if it only shuffles the remaining cards. What it does is inject a little uncertainty into the turn, because the card is not resolved until you get to it.


Can you explain what you mean by this? What difference does it make if you shuffle a set of cards whose order is already unknown?
 
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Radosław Michalak
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n4blue wrote:
Sabzevarian wrote:

That being said, the winter is coming card could still serve a function, even if it only shuffles the remaining cards. What it does is inject a little uncertainty into the turn, because the card is not resolved until you get to it.


Can you explain what you mean by this? What difference does it make if you shuffle a set of cards whose order is already unknown?

You do this when it comes to resolving that deck.
So if you draw WiC in deck II, you have to resolve card from deck I before everybody know what card will be in deck II after reshuffling.
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So it looks like we are all agreed that WiC causes all ten cards to be shuffled.

This then presents a problem with the interpretation of the Reader house card, but that's for another thread.
 
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Adam McLean
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n4blue wrote:
So it looks like we are all agreed that WiC causes all ten cards to be shuffled.

This then presents a problem with the interpretation of the Reader house card, but that's for another thread.


I can see how consistency could be an issue with the definition of "deck" ... I think with the Reader you would be okay with however your group wanted to play it simply due to the fact that DwD is only 6 rounds so there would always be at least be 5 cards to choose from if you decided that he couldn't choose from cards already resolved.

FFG can be terribly inconsistent with their use of terms, they do seem to use the term "deck" in other games (such as Cosmic Encounter) to refer to unplayed cards and "discard pile" for those already played. It's just conjecture from me at this point, however, as this thread seems to point out it means all the cards in the case of WiC, but only the unplayed ones in reference to the Reader.
 
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oatesatm wrote:
n4blue wrote:
So it looks like we are all agreed that WiC causes all ten cards to be shuffled.

This then presents a problem with the interpretation of the Reader house card, but that's for another thread.


I can see how consistency could be an issue with the definition of "deck" ... I think with the Reader you would be okay with however your group wanted to play it simply due to the fact that DwD is only 6 rounds so there would always be at least be 5 cards to choose from if you decided that he couldn't choose from cards already resolved.

FFG can be terribly inconsistent with their use of terms, they do seem to use the term "deck" in other games (such as Cosmic Encounter) to refer to unplayed cards and "discard pile" for those already played. It's just conjecture from me at this point, however, as this thread seems to point out it means all the cards in the case of WiC, but only the unplayed ones in reference to the Reader.


Yeah, the Reader ruling on how to play it still stands (which is of particular importance for deck 3 picks)
Quote:
The Greyjoy player would be able to look at only the cards that haven't yet been used. Just the remaining cards would be shuffled afterwards, not the discard pile.
After all, the person who designed the Reader was the one who gave me that answer on how to play the Reader. Just forget about the word deck, don't think it was intended to change the way winter is coming is played.
 
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