Ben Thornton
Australia
Edgeworth
Australia
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I've decided to create this thread to keep an updated tally of what the value for the Mine Craft pledge level is worth if purchased separately. I will update this value as new items get added to the optional add-on menu on the kickstarter page. The figure in brackets is the estimated retail value as supplied by FFP.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1034852783/shadows-of-br...
CURRENT VALUE AT OUTLAW - $794
CURRENT VALUE AT DELUXE OUTLAW - $869
"ESTIMATED" RETAIL VALUE OF BASE GAMES WITH ALL ADD-ONS - $952
$150 ($170) - Outlaw pledge (Single set of figures) or
$225 - Deluxe Outlaw pledge (Double set. Same as Mine Cart)
$8 ($10) - Ghosts of the Damned supplement
$12 ($15) - Gambler Hero
$18 ($25) - Darkstone Shaman Hero
$18 ($25) - Doorways
$25 ($30) - Guardian
$25 ($32) - Sand Kraken
$30 ($36) - Burrower
$25 ($30) - Vampire Nest
$10 ($12) - Colonel Scafford
$15 ($18) - Darkstone Brutes
$35 ($40) - Trederra
$12 ($15) - Z4 Grenadier
$30 ($35) - The Lost Army
$16 ($20) - Mine Terrain
$12 ($15) - Jargono Tribal Human Hero
$25 ($30) - Werewolves' Den
$12 ($15) - Doctor Hero
$25 ($30) - Hellfire Succubi
$20 ($25) - Jargono Swamp Raptor
$35 ($40) - Blasted Wastes
$25 ($30) - Black Fang Tribe
$12 ($15) - Cowboy Hero
$20 ($25) - Wasteland Terralisk
$8 ($10) - Burning Sands
$30 ($35) - Cult of the Crimson Hand
$35 ($40) - The Ancient One
$35 ($40) - The Derelict Ship
$10 ($12) - Trederran Field Marshal
$18 ($24) - B.E.A.C.O.N. Drones
$8 ($10) - No Mans Land
$15 ($18) - Hell cannon and crew
$8 ($10) - The Captains Log
$12 ($15) - Wandering Samurai
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Matthew McFarland
United States
Massachusetts
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Cool idea!
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Ian Allen
United States
Madison
Alabama
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I value it $75 less because the deluxe outlaw instead of the regular outlaw includes an extra set of base figures that aren't needed for gameplay.
So i've got this as being worth $383 currently since we are being strong-armed into buying the deluxe instead of regular outlaw set.
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Gary Jinxon
England
Quite Insane
Stop lurking on BGG and do something
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I thought it was a mine cart level. But nice post anyway
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Matt Price
United States
San Francisco
California
Member of the San Francisco Game Group since 2005
This is a customized Bane Tower from the game Man o' War
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I agree with Ian here, I don't see the value of the second set of dudes. (maybe later they'll clear that up, but for now I'm not sure)
Would be good, however, to add all the freebies that come along with the Outlaw pledge, as those all have value too. I'd recommend guesstimating their value based on similar stuff from the add ons menu. We're closing in on about $150 worth of free stuff already:
Like maybe:
$6 - Female Outlaw variant figure
$8 - Dark Omens encounter pack
$6 - Female Gunslinger variant figure
$15? - The Scafford Gang (6 enemies)
$6 - Male Rancher variant figure
$6 - Prospector, new hero class (1 figure)
$15? - Extra set of passages and room tiles (like the extra figures, I don't see the need for this one either)
$6 - Nun variant figure
$15? - Serpentmen warriors (6 enemies)
$6 - Female US Marshall variant figure
$20? - Caverns of Cynder (map tiles and cards)
$6 - Piano player variant figure
$8 - Blood Money encounter pack
$15 - Lava Men (3 large enemies)
$6 - Bandita variant figure (or soon!)
$144 - estimated total so far
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Matt Price
United States
San Francisco
California
Member of the San Francisco Game Group since 2005
This is a customized Bane Tower from the game Man o' War
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JinxedSan wrote: I thought it was a mine cart level. But nice post anyway
lol. minecraft.
I didn't even see that.
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mattprice wrote: I agree with Ian here, I don't see the value of the second set of dudes. (maybe later they'll clear that up, but for now I'm not sure)
Would be good, however, to add all the freebies that come along with the Outlaw pledge, as those all have value too. I'd recommend guesstimating their value based on similar stuff from the add ons menu. We're closing in on about $150 worth of free stuff already:
Like maybe:
$6 - Female Outlaw variant figure
$8 - Dark Omens encounter pack
$6 - Female Gunslinger variant figure
$15? - The Scafford Gang (6 enemies)
$6 - Male Rancher variant figure
$6 - Prospector, new hero class (1 figure)
$15? - Extra set of passages and room tiles (like the extra figures, I don't see the need for this one either)
$6 - Nun variant figure
$15? - Serpentmen warriors (6 enemies)
$6 - Female US Marshall variant figure
$20? - Caverns of Cynder (map tiles and cards)
$6 - Piano player variant figure
$8 - Blood Money encounter pack
$15 - Lava Men (3 large enemies)
$6 - Bandita variant figure (or soon!)
$144 - estimated total so far
I think they're comparing how much more the Mine Cart costs over the Outlaw Tier (which includes all stretch goal items for free). It doesn't make sense to factor in the cost of the stretch goals, only the add-ons.
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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mattprice wrote: I agree with Ian here, I don't see the value of the second set of dudes.
The value is that, if you update your want lists, you can trade them to me so I can paint 'em! 
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The extra minis have a couple purposes:
1) With 1 Core Set, there will be times where you will not have enough miniatures to place. If you don't have any more miniatures of that type, the enemy gets special bonuses and becomes tougher. Its a question of whether you want your enemies tougher, or more of them.
2) Unlike other FFP games, SoB has character classes (instead of specific characters). This means that players can technically take the same class. With a second hero miniature of that class, each can have an appropriate miniature for their class.
So, it isn't useless, and I find it a good deal.
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we dont know yet how likely we are to run out of miniatures.
it sounds as if gameplay-wise you can actually choose to explore a tile or not, so you can directly control the number of miniatures on the board, and just for getting the hero figures for 75$ isnt a good deal.
i would have preferred that they split these figures up as add-ons, so people can choose what to add or not.
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Ben Thornton
Australia
Edgeworth
Australia
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mattprice wrote: JinxedSan wrote: I thought it was a mine cart level. But nice post anyway lol. minecraft. I didn't even see that.
Was wondering how long it would take people to notice that 
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Olivier Darles
France
Labenne
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dvang wrote: 1) With 1 Core Set, there will be times where you will not have enough miniatures to place. If you don't have any more miniatures of that type, the enemy gets special bonuses and becomes tougher. Its a question of whether you want your enemies tougher, or more of them.
The Outlaw level gives you 2 core sets (56 enemies) and all the stretch goals (15 enemies for now). Here, we consider you get all the add on with the Mine Cart level or buying them at the outlaw level, that's 22 enemies more, for now. FFP explained that enemies can appear anywhere even on otherworlds there's not from, so it shouldn't be a problem to use all those miniatures. And if i really run out of a type, the tougher rule is fine for me
dvang wrote: 2) Unlike other FFP games, SoB has character classes (instead of specific characters). This means that players can technically take the same class. With a second hero miniature of that class, each can have an appropriate miniature for their class.
with the stretch goals, you'll probably get alternate miniatures for each hero class from both core set (actually, only the law man & indian scout don't have alternates, and stretch goal for the female indian has been revealed)
In my opinion, the extra set of minis isn't necessary. I don't find it silly to compare Mine Cart Level to Outlaw level + all add-ons
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Martin Gregory
Australia
Mount Nelson
Tasmania
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Dabouda wrote:
FFP explained that enemies can appear anywhere even on otherworlds there's not from, so it shouldn't be a problem to use all those miniatures.
That's an interesting point. Is there a rationale for that?
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Olivier Darles
France
Labenne
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If there's portals from Earth to other worlds, there's also portals between other worlds. It's then possible to encounter trederrans in the swamps of Jargono, for example
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Matthew McFarland
United States
Massachusetts
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+$30, The Lost Army. Undead with muskets, squee!
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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Benzy311 wrote: I've decided to create this thread to keep an updated tally of what the value for the Mine Craft pledge level is worth if purchased separately. I will update this value as new items get added to the optional add-on menu on the kickstarter page. The figure in brackets is the estimated retail value as supplied by FFP. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1034852783/shadows-of-br...CURRENT VALUE AT OUTLAW - $413CURRENT VALUE AT DELUXE OUTLAW - $488"ESTIMATED" RETAIL VALUE OF BASE GAMES WITH ALL ADD-ONS - $493$150 ($170) - Outlaw pledge (Single set of figures) or$225 - Deluxe Outlaw pledge (Double set. Same as Mine Cart) $8 ($10) - Ghosts of the Damned supplement $12 ($15) - Gambler Hero $18 ($25) - Darkstone Shaman Hero $18 ($25) - Doorways $25 ($30) - Guardian $25 ($32) - Sand Kraken $30 ($36) - Burrower $25 ($30) - Vampire Nest $10 ($12) - Colonel Scafford $15 ($18) - Darkstone Brutes $35 ($40) - Trederra $12 ($15) - Z4 Grenadier $30 ($35) - The Lost Army
(Is it more money in total or more mine cart buyers which unlock more?)
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Mickey
Singapore
Twilight struggling to find time to play
Twilight struggling to find time to play
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Add-ons will not hit retail I think, probably will only be sold on FFP webstore, and FFP might have said so somewhere, cant find a quote though
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Grant Holzhauer
United States
Chandler
Arizona
Building the perfect game collection for our growing family
Who knew Euro games could be thematic?
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The add-ons will be either retail (monsters) or web store only (cards). They said so in one of the comments.
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Alywin Fruge
United States
New Orleans
Louisiana
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aliquis wrote: Benzy311 wrote: I've decided to create this thread to keep an updated tally of what the value for the Mine Craft pledge level is worth if purchased separately. I will update this value as new items get added to the optional add-on menu on the kickstarter page. The figure in brackets is the estimated retail value as supplied by FFP. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1034852783/shadows-of-br...CURRENT VALUE AT OUTLAW - $413CURRENT VALUE AT DELUXE OUTLAW - $488"ESTIMATED" RETAIL VALUE OF BASE GAMES WITH ALL ADD-ONS - $493$150 ($170) - Outlaw pledge (Single set of figures) or$225 - Deluxe Outlaw pledge (Double set. Same as Mine Cart) $8 ($10) - Ghosts of the Damned supplement $12 ($15) - Gambler Hero $18 ($25) - Darkstone Shaman Hero $18 ($25) - Doorways $25 ($30) - Guardian $25 ($32) - Sand Kraken $30 ($36) - Burrower $25 ($30) - Vampire Nest $10 ($12) - Colonel Scafford $15 ($18) - Darkstone Brutes $35 ($40) - Trederra $12 ($15) - Z4 Grenadier $30 ($35) - The Lost Army Estimated Internet price: 493*0.6 = $296 to 493*0.7 = $345. (Is it more money in total or more mine cart buyers which unlock more?)
Your math agrees with mine...I was even being generous to FFP and came up with a current total of $345.
The only Mine Cart tier that is truly "in the black" (as of this date) is the first one. The discrepancy between the first and the last Mine Cart level is $150 ...which equals $214 when translated into fuzzy "retail" dollars (that are subject to change at any point after the KS ends).
So, in order for the highest tier Mine Cart to break even -vs- waiting to buy this online later on, FFP will need to fund $214+ in additional rewards...those being "retail" pricing.
Not inconceivable but that's a looong way to go and, not until you start to exceed that $214 of stuff do backers actually start to get rewarded for taking more risk than somebody who just waits to pick this up later.
Once you try to assign a risk factor to this, the only Mine Carts that make sense are the first (and maybe second). I think I am seeing why people are so peeved.
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Ben Thornton
Australia
Edgeworth
Australia
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It looks the additions to mine cart aren't stretch goals. But are thrown in by FFP whenever they come up with an idea it seems. They better hurry up and add more to the level or people are going to start pulling out.
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Ben Thornton
Australia
Edgeworth
Australia
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OP updated with the newest editions...
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Adam Canning
United Kingdom
Stand By, Ready
Wolkenritter
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quadraphonic wrote:
I think they're comparing how much more the Mine Cart costs over the Outlaw Tier (which includes all stretch goal items for free). It doesn't make sense to factor in the cost of the stretch goals, only the add-ons.
It would for the final Estimate of Retail Cost. Since the Stretch Goals aren't being added to the retail version for "free".
It looks like there could be another couple of hundred at "estimated" Retail in Stretch Goals.
$15 - Outlaw Hero Class (If it was available )
$10 - Dark Omens encounter pack
$20 - The Scafford Gang (6 enemies)
$15 - Prospector, Hero Class
$20 - Serpentmen warriors (6 enemies)
$40? - Caverns of Cynder (map tiles and cards) + Lava Men
$10 - Blood Money encounter pack
$15 - Orphan Hero Class
$15? 20? - Flesh Stalker
$18 - Custodians
$15? - Mule
$30? - Expanded Frontier Town
On the people estimating Online Discounts, that assumes that FFP put the smaller items into the distribution chain rather than selling direct for those. LNOE has expansions only available direct from FFP and the distribution chain doesn't like new products with 20-30 SKUs.
Course that is also an argument for expecting to see the extras consolidated into a smaller number of individually more expensive but over all cheaper expansions. Especially since FFP's reason for not doing so doesn't necessarily make sense for converting kickstarter stretch goals into products. [They like small expansions because they can release smaller expansions more often, rather than having to wait until they get together enough content for a big one.]
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Given the number and associations present within the minis, and their usual business model, I would be very surprised if at least some of them didn't get condensed down to mid sized boxed sets. A character, some tiles, some cards, vaguely link them together thematically, slap a $40 MSRP on it or something and kick it out the door.
While I respect the growing benefit found in the Outlaw tier, I really think it would draw in a lot of people on the fence to have a middle, more affordable tier of some sort.
A "Mine Cart" based on the base Outlaw instead of the Deluxe that retained the (still minimally appealing, at least to me) credit around $400 would definitely be eye catching. Or even in the $350-375 range with minimal or no credit. It'd be interesting to see how many of the vocally "it's totally cool, no changes necessary, stop whining!" backers would drop their $475's for such a thing.
"But, but then the campaign would lose money!!"
Possibly, but for each $75 lost as a MC7 backer dropped down, there's potential for a $1 backer to jump up. Hell, at that math, for every $1 backer that picks it up they could lose 5 MC7's to the new tier and still be ahead.
"But what if this fictional new level killed the higher Mine Carts entirely?"
Then I guess it really wasn't all that sustainable? While many people seem happy and enthusiastic and engaged within the campaign, the sense I'm getting from many is that they're backing at MC7 because they feel they have to in order to get everything at a minor discount. That's not indicative of particularly positive things, and I feel far too many are happy to brush off even polite and reasoned critique because "omg all the negativity!"
Well, yeah. It's possible for an action to be controversial without that controversy being unanimous.
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Ben Thornton
Australia
Edgeworth
Australia
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The doctor is in....
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Justin Robben
United States
Spring Hill
Florida
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So Benzy...it's still The Outlaw level with cherry-picked add-ons that's the best value, yes?
I am thinking the only add-ons I really want are all the new classes, the 3 missions and perhaps the Trederra Terrain.
That's still a mighty pledge at ~$300, if I see right..
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