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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Attack against two hexes at once with DAS rss

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fangotango
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Suppose an attack against two adjacent hexes was planned as a single attack. Ground support is allocated, and all the air factors are placed over only one of the hexes. Does the attacker have to announce at this point that the ground support is aimed at both hexes, or can that be left open until the attack is actually resolved?

For instance, if part the attack relied on units arriving by naval transport in addition to units already in place, but because of enemy interceptions of the naval transport mission, the naval transport is turned back. Is the attacker required to attack both hexes as one, or can the attacker decide to only attack the hex which has the ground support air units in it with whatever adjacent ground units are there?
 
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Patrick Bauer
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There is no explicit requirement in the rules. But this gets prickly if you fly more than three times the air of the apparent factors. In that case you might have to tip your hand and justify the extra air.

I don't really like the outcome of the rules on this one. Seems unsporting for a three month event.
 
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fangotango
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The only thing in the rules I could find that gives some indication of how to deal with the situation is a DQB:

Quote:
DQB If an air unit is placed to give ground support for a seaborne invasion but the invasion is aborted by an intercepting naval force, is the air unit eliminated because a legal odds attack can not be made?
A. No – the air unit couldn't make an attack of any kind without ground forces and therefore is not forced to attack, but 28.455 would apply to the extent that the air unit's attempt to attack counts as an Offensive air mission and it is inverted.


I assume from this that any air factors in excess of what is allowed when the extra ground units fail to materialize would return to base inverted, while the rest would be committed to the attack with the available ground units.
 
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Patrick Bauer
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fangotango wrote:
The only thing in the rules I could find that gives some indication of how to deal with the situation is a DQB:

Quote:
DQB If an air unit is placed to give ground support for a seaborne invasion but the invasion is aborted by an intercepting naval force, is the air unit eliminated because a legal odds attack can not be made?
A. No – the air unit couldn't make an attack of any kind without ground forces and therefore is not forced to attack, but 28.455 would apply to the extent that the air unit's attempt to attack counts as an Offensive air mission and it is inverted.


I assume from this that any air factors in excess of what is allowed when the extra ground units fail to materialize would return to base inverted, while the rest would be committed to the attack with the available ground units.


I was speaking of the more general question you asked.

28.422 The total air factors attacking any one hex may not exceed three times the total ground factors attacking that hex. Generally one can not place excess GS factors over a hex, for example to fend off interception. But if one is attacking multiple hexes then an apparent excess of air factors may seem to be over a hex.
 
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fangotango
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I am not sure why an attack against multiple hexes could create an apparent excess of ground support any different than an attack against a single hex, since GS is based on the attacking factors, not defending factors.

Naval transport missions have to be announced at the same time as ground support missions. If a GS mission is in excess of adjacent ground units, then I imagine the attacker is required to explain why the amount is legitimate, or not be allowed the excess amount.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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It does raise an interesting point. I think the DQB quoted does address the narrow question in the OP. Even forgetting about one vs. two hex attacks for the moment, the offensive air mission is flown before ground combat is announced. If ground units participating in the attack were supposed to arrive via ship (transport or amphib) and were intercepted, then excess air simply flies home.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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SewerStarFish wrote:
fangotango wrote:
The only thing in the rules I could find that gives some indication of how to deal with the situation is a DQB:

Quote:
DQB If an air unit is placed to give ground support for a seaborne invasion but the invasion is aborted by an intercepting naval force, is the air unit eliminated because a legal odds attack can not be made?
A. No – the air unit couldn't make an attack of any kind without ground forces and therefore is not forced to attack, but 28.455 would apply to the extent that the air unit's attempt to attack counts as an Offensive air mission and it is inverted.


I assume from this that any air factors in excess of what is allowed when the extra ground units fail to materialize would return to base inverted, while the rest would be committed to the attack with the available ground units.


I was speaking of the more general question you asked.

28.422 The total air factors attacking any one hex may not exceed three times the total ground factors attacking that hex. Generally one can not place excess GS factors over a hex, for example to fend off interception. But if one is attacking multiple hexes then an apparent excess of air factors may seem to be over a hex.


As a practical matter I'm not sure it matters. I do not believe that the defender can intercept, so I don't see any advantage to the attacker intentionally putting excess air factors into the target hex. I think the excess would simply be forced back to base, but would count as having performed a mission that turn and be unavailable for other purposes until the next turn. Seems like purely downside with no upside at all.
 
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craig grinnell
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fangotango wrote:
For instance, if part the attack relied on units arriving by naval transport in addition to units already in place, but because of enemy interceptions of the naval transport mission, the naval transport is turned back. Is the attacker required to attack both hexes as one, or can the attacker decide to only attack the hex which has the ground support air units in it with whatever adjacent ground units are there?


You don't have to attack both units. You can change your mind and attack either one or both right up until the die is actually rolled.

However, as you know, if you don't at least attack the hex containing the GS, you lose the air.

I played this game in my teen years and dont remember it being quite so "complicated."
I guess that means I wasn't playing it right
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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grinnell1969 wrote:

You don't have to attack both units. You can change your mind and attack either one or both right up until the die is actually rolled.

However, as you know, if you don't at least attack the hex containing the GS, you lose the air.....


The last bit seems at odds with the DQB item quoted above.
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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I think he means this:

Quote:
Once ground support has been placed, that hex must be attacked during regular combat or exploitation at legal odds or the air units are eliminated. They cannot be withdrawn without making a legal attack.


Not quite the same as the invasion as it implies forces that are already in place which choose not to attack.
 
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craig grinnell
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deadkenny wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:

You don't have to attack both units. You can change your mind and attack either one or both right up until the die is actually rolled.

However, as you know, if you don't at least attack the hex containing the GS, you lose the air.....


The last bit seems at odds with the DQB item quoted above.


not really. the DQB question is specifically about a seaborne invasion against a single hex whereas the example posed by fango involves an attack bolstered by the addition of units brought in via sea transport.

if the transport mission was aborted, the unit(s) that are already there would still have to attack at least one part of the defending group to avoid losing the air.

His example isnt a seaborne invasion like the DQB question is.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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nyhotep wrote:
I think he means this:

Quote:
Once ground support has been placed, that hex must be attacked during regular combat or exploitation at legal odds or the air units are eliminated. They cannot be withdrawn without making a legal attack.


Not quite the same as the invasion as it implies forces that are already in place which choose not to attack.


I guess the point was that, from the OP, forces coming in via sea transport were part of the attack. The DQB seems directly at odds with the rule you've partially quoted, at least to some extent. Rule 28.421 didn't make any exception in the original RaW. So until the DQB item was put out there, it seems clear that if you placed air factors on units in a beach hex, with the intention of attacking amphibiously, and then your sea invasion was intercepted and turned back the air was dead (assuming you had no further means to make an attack).

The DQB clearly makes an exception to this, at least in the case of sea borne invasions. But it raises the question of how far that exception extends. Again, what if it were the same situation (say for purposes of discussion a single hex, and no other ground units available) except that the ground units were to come in via sea transport but were intercepted. Does the DQB apply?
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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grinnell1969 wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:

You don't have to attack both units. You can change your mind and attack either one or both right up until the die is actually rolled.

However, as you know, if you don't at least attack the hex containing the GS, you lose the air.....


The last bit seems at odds with the DQB item quoted above.


not really. the DQB question is specifically about a seaborne invasion against a single hex whereas the example posed by fango involves an attack bolstered by the addition of units brought in via sea transport.

if the transport mission was aborted, the unit(s) that are already there would still have to attack at least one part of the defending group to avoid losing the air.

His example isnt a seaborne invasion like the DQB question is.


So one point is whether the exception made explicitly for sea borne invasions naturally extends to sea transport as well (see above - assume for purposes of discussion that it is only a single hex attack and the only attacking ground units available were coming in via sea transport).

The other point is that, as of the point in time that the air factors are placed, there is no explicit 'plan' or 'obligation' to attack hexes, either individually or two at the same time. So first let us assume that there is a beach hex with an enemy ground unit, and no other hexes or enemy units are involved. Further let us say that there are friendly units adjacent to the beach hex, and other friendly units are coming in via sea borne invasion. Air is placed on the beach hex. The sea borne invasion is intercepted and turned back. Are you saying that the DQB exception would not apply, as the friendly units could attack the beach hex over ground, so the air would be automatically eliminated if those adjacent ground units declined to attack the beach hex? What if they were committed to another attack? Are you saying they would have to switch their attack to the beach hex in order to 'save' the air factors over the beach hex?
 
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Doug Poskitt
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To the extent that a seaborne invasion is an offensive mission that moves a ground unit from A to B, wouldn't it be sensible to say that the exception would also apply to the Sea Transport of a ground unit into an attacking position, which is an offensive move that gets the ground unit from A to B?

 
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dougposkitt wrote:
To the extent that a seaborne invasion is an offensive mission that moves a ground unit from A to B, wouldn't it be sensible to say that the exception would also apply to the Sea Transport of a ground unit into an attacking position, which is an offensive move that gets the ground unit from A to B?


FWIW I agree with you. However, the issue comes back to the problem with rules changes via Q&A. If the DQB item had simply said "Yes, the air factors are eliminated." there would be no question. However, an exception was made, and we are left to wonder whether that exception was simply a sort of 'example' of when air would be off the hook created by 28.421 vs. a narrowly stated only instance where it would be off the hook.

 
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