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Commands & Colors: Napoleonics Expansion #3 – The Austrian Army» Forums » Rules

Subject: Austrian Line & Leaders rss

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Mark McG
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Quote:
When Austrian Line Infantry unit is ordered by a Force March or Bayonet Charge Command card, the unit may only move a maximum of 1 hex.


Quote:
FORCE MARCH

Issue an order to all INFANTRY units in one section. Light, Rifle Light, Grenadier, Guard infantry units and infantry units with an attached Leader may move up to 2 hexes and battle.


So the question is how do these 2 rules interact. If an Austrian Line unit with a leader is ordered by a Forced March, can it move only 1 hex, or 2 hexes?

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Michael Dippel
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The special Austrian rule (not only LN, also MI) should overwrite the Command Card rule here.

I am also not happy with this contradictory rules, because it seems,
the CCN goes slowly the same way like Memoir 44,
we have there in meantime a lot of small, but also contradictory rules, and there we need in meantime a FAQ, thick as a phone book
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Serre combe olivier
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From CCNapoleonics
http://www.ccnapoleonics.net/Rules/Expansion-3/new-units-and...

Any Austrian infantry unit that moves one or more hexes and engages in ranged combat, battle with one-half the number of blocks rounding down. (5 and 4 blocks = 2, 3 and 2 blocks = 1, 1 block = 0). Light, Grenzer and Grenadier units will add one die to the total number of dice allowed to roll.

1 block = 0

True ou not ?
 
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Mark McG
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Combi wrote:

From CCNapoleonics
http://www.ccnapoleonics.net/Rules/Expansion-3/new-units-and...

Any Austrian infantry unit that moves one or more hexes and engages in ranged combat, battle with one-half the number of blocks rounding down. (5 and 4 blocks = 2, 3 and 2 blocks = 1, 1 block = 0). Light, Grenzer and Grenadier units will add one die to the total number of dice allowed to roll.

1 block = 0

True ou not ?


True.. and same as Spanish.
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Martin S
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Bayernkini wrote:
I am also not happy with this contradictory rules, because it seems, the CCN goes slowly the same way like Memoir 44,
we have there in meantime a lot of small, but also contradictory rules, and there we need in meantime a FAQ, thick as a phone book


But how else can the armies have different aspects unless with specific rules to give them a 'feel'? I agree that Memoir '44 can be far more complex with additional unit / terrain rules than at the start. But I also like that each nations plays different and want the same for C&C:N.
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mark selleck
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Achtung_Panzer10 wrote:
Bayernkini wrote:
I am also not happy with this contradictory rules, because it seems, the CCN goes slowly the same way like Memoir 44,
we have there in meantime a lot of small, but also contradictory rules, and there we need in meantime a FAQ, thick as a phone book


But how else can the armies have different aspects unless with specific rules to give them a 'feel'? I agree that Memoir '44 can be far more complex with additional unit / terrain rules than at the start. But I also like that each nations plays different and want the same for C&C:N.


I agree, I like the different rules for the different nations and units in memoir. IMO the FAQ has a lot of stuff that can be solved by just reading the rules and not reading into things that aren’t there.

Minedog3 wrote:
Quote:
When Austrian Line Infantry unit is ordered by a Force March or Bayonet Charge Command card, the unit may only move a maximum of 1 hex.


Quote:
FORCE MARCH

Issue an order to all INFANTRY units in one section. Light, Rifle Light, Grenadier, Guard infantry units and infantry units with an attached Leader may move up to 2 hexes and battle.


So the question is how do these 2 rules interact. If an Austrian Line unit with a leader is ordered by a Forced March, can it move only 1 hex, or 2 hexes?



Take for example the OP that started this discussion. If we read the Forced March card the only time LI can use the 2 hex move, is if a leader is attached. So after reading the rules outlining the Austrian rules for LI and it’s restriction with the Forced march it seems pretty straight forward that the LI with a leader would only be allowed to move one hex since the only time LI can normally do a 2 hex move is if a leader was attached anyway.
 
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Michael Dippel
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Quote:
If we read the Forced March card the only time LI can use the 2 hex move, is if a leader is attached


Not right
If a LDR is attached to a LN, the LN may move 2 hex AND battle,
but without a LDR, a general LN may also move 2 hex with the Forced March but can´t battle
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Mark McG
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jesters_race wrote:

Take for example the OP that started this discussion. If we read the Forced March card the only time LI can use the 2 hex move, is if a leader is attached. So after reading the rules outlining the Austrian rules for LI and it’s restriction with the Forced march it seems pretty straight forward that the LI with a leader would only be allowed to move one hex since the only time LI can normally do a 2 hex move is if a leader was attached anyway.


I dare say you are right, but easy to see where it will come up in a game.

Amongst my game breaking friends, this will be best answered earlier rather than later.
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mark selleck
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Bayernkini wrote:
Quote:
If we read the Forced March card the only time LI can use the 2 hex move, is if a leader is attached


Not right
If a LDR is attached to a LN, the LN may move 2 hex AND battle,
but without a LDR, a general LN may also move 2 hex with the Forced March but can´t battle


Ah yes another example of where the rules need to be read a bit closer on my part (sorry was 3am when I was trying to respond)

But nether the less the Rules regarding the Austrian LI is pretty clear. It doesn't say unless a leader is attached or any other exceptions so we just have to follow what the rule says. This is what I was talking about when FAQ seem to be filled with rules clarifications because people to try to read into things that aren't even there.
If we read the Austrian LI without thinking of any if, buts, or maybes that aren't there then its pretty clear.
 
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Combi wrote:

From CCNapoleonics
http://www.ccnapoleonics.net/Rules/Expansion-3/new-units-and...

Any Austrian infantry unit that moves one or more hexes and engages in ranged combat, battle with one-half the number of blocks rounding down. (5 and 4 blocks = 2, 3 and 2 blocks = 1, 1 block = 0). Light, Grenzer and Grenadier units will add one die to the total number of dice allowed to roll.

1 block = 0

True ou not ?


True. (.5 rounded down = 0) Also, this formula is for Austrian infantry that moves and engages in ranged combat.
 
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jesters_race wrote:
Bayernkini wrote:
Quote:
If we read the Forced March card the only time LI can use the 2 hex move, is if a leader is attached


Not right
If a LDR is attached to a LN, the LN may move 2 hex AND battle,
but without a LDR, a general LN may also move 2 hex with the Forced March but can´t battle


Ah yes another example of where the rules need to be read a bit closer on my part (sorry was 3am when I was trying to respond)

But nether the less the Rules regarding the Austrian LI is pretty clear. It doesn't say unless a leader is attached or any other exceptions so we just have to follow what the rule says. This is what I was talking about when FAQ seem to be filled with rules clarifications because people to try to read into things that aren't even there.
If we read the Austrian LI without thinking of any if, buts, or maybes that aren't there then its pretty clear.


But the rules for Tactics cards on page 28 says:
Quote:
Tactic cards allow ordered units to move and/or battle in ways not normally allowed in the basic rules. Terrain movement and battle restrictions still apply when a Tactic card Actions take precedence over basic rules.


The basic rule for infantry units on page 7 is:
Quote:
An ordered line, grenadier, Old Guard, guard grenadier or militia infantry unit may move 1 hex and battle.


The new rule for Austrian Line and Militia infantry does muddy things. Right now, I think, at the least, Austrian Line and Militia infantry with an attached leader can move two hexes and battle under play of a Force March card.

Official clarification would be nice for both cards—even it means that the cards' text should simply be amended to say "...except for Austrian Line and Militia infantry units."
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Michael Dippel
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You are general right Brady,
but now we got the Austrian MI and LN, which "overwrite" this Command Card rules with there Special rule.

How should this released????
Or do you want each time, after we got such special rules, a new command card deck, which says this

The new special rule of Austrian LN an MI is absolut clear, but we will add this to the FAQ on ccnapoleonics.net also.

Alessandro will update the FAQ immediately next days, so we can end this discuss then

As i wrote above, i am not lucky with such contradictory rules, because with such rules, the FAQ grows up like a phone book.
 
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Bayernkini wrote:
You are general right Brady,
but now we got the Austrian MI and LN, which "overwrite" this Command Card rules with there Special rule (we have similar on Memoir 44)

How should this released????
Or do you want each time, we got such Special rules, a new command card deck, which says this


My point is that the rules say that card text overrules the basic rules. I guess the way around this is to say that the special rule for Austrian Line and Militia infantry is not a basic one?

But it introduces doubt into the way cards are played to say that national rules are not basic and overrule the cards. National rules > Card Text > "basic" rules. soblue

IMO, it's easier to remember, teach, and apply that the card text overrules the rest. Card Text > National rules > "basic" rules.

Quote:
The new Special rule of Austrian LN an MI is absolut clear, but we will add this to the FAQ on ccnapoleonics.net also.


It is clear, if it means that it does in fact trump the Tactics card text, which it does seem to intend. A more explicit note saying that it overrides the general rule about Tactics card play would help. (And perhaps it's in there! I don't know! ) I just think that would erode the meaning of the Tactics card rules on page 28. Especially if there is something else of this nature in store for the Prussians or another nationality (1812 Americans, other European minor powers) in a future expansion!
 
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Michael Dippel
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Here is the very fast answer (only 15 minutes ) from Richard Borg:


When an Austrian Militia or Line Infantry unit is ordered by a Force March or Bayonet Charge Command card, the unit may only move a maximum of 1 hex:



Question: How many hexes move such a unit with an attached Leader?
Also 1 or 2 hexes?


(RB) And you are correct!
When an Austrian Militia or Line Infantry unit is ordered by a Force March or Bayonet Charge Command card, the unit may only move a maximum of 1 hex.
An attached leader does not allow an Austrian Line or Militia Infantry unit to move 2 hexes when ordered by a Force March or Bayonet Charge.


Richard Borg
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Thanks, Michael and Richard, for putting that one to rest so quickly.
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mark selleck
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BradyLSMy wrote:
point is that the rules say that card text overrules the basic rules. I guess the way around this is to say that the special rule for Austrian Line and Militia infantry is not a basic one?


It is clear, if it means that it does in fact trump the Tactics card text, which it does seem to intend. A more explicit note saying that it overrides the general rule about Tactics card play would help. (And perhaps it's in there! I don't know! ) I just think that would erode the meaning of the Tactics card rules on page 28. Especially if there is something else of this nature in store for the Prussians or another nationality (1812 Americans, other European minor powers) in a future expansion!


I think the Austrian LI rule already clearly trumps the tactics cards that it lists since within the rule it already say so.


But good to see RB has provided the intention (which is already written into the rules)





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Another example of how, with C&C rules, it is normally right to go with the common and plain sense of the rule as written, rather than trying to "interpret" it.
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