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Subject: Counters are really a mess! rss

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Frank Müller
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I have to say that I cannot play this game. The map is beautiful, but alone from looking at the messy, overloaded counters I get eye cancer.

75% of the surface space of these (small 1/2 inch) infantry counters are wasted by uninteresting and obstructive pics of unit heraldry (wtf!) instead of showing game relevant information like other more clever wargames do. Thats non-acceptable for me. So I try to sell it and play the beautiful France 40 instead.

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Wendell
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Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
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It's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.
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Bill Lawson
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One of the nicest looking games I've ever seen. Map and counters.
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Mike Whittemore
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Coronado
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enpeze wrote:
uninteresting and obstructive pics of unit heraldry


I find the heraldry very interesting. I don't necessarily want all my wargames to have it, but I do like it in this game. When I see a little "7" next to an armor silhouette I might think "7th armored" but when I see the rat insignia I think "the desert rats" which brings more meaning to me. It doesn't help me play the game - but it makes it more enjoyable for me. I do understand what you are saying though - lots of unique counter imagery on this detailed map can be overwhelming on the eyes - but its still beautiful in my opinion.
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Colin Raitt
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I really like them though to you they seem a bit garish. Just look at the British 49th Divisions polar bear from their time as Iceland's garrison.
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Joe Thompson
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I found sorting them to be a pain, so have some sympathy with the OP.
 
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I absolutely love the atmosphere of this game. I've got it setup right now, and am getting ready to start my invasion. The character of the counters really makes it lovely for me. I wouldn't want the counters any other way.

It is unfortunate that you don't appreciate that.
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Frank Müller
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well, if they put it the other way round it would be nice. Eg. small unit heraldic like for those who are interested in such nostalgica (like they did it on their tank counters which are ok), but the larger part of the counter should be the smooth and clean nato symbol like every normal wargame.

Another solution could have been a more artistic one (I am grafical designer myself so I would have done it in this way) like fading the heraldic with soft colors smoothly into the background but leaving the big nato symbol in front. Eg. Lock n Load does this with the nation flag of their NaW counters and they look great without the danger of grafical overload and eye bleeding.
 
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Bryan Martin
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billyboy wrote:
One of the nicest looking games I've ever seen. Map and counters.

Agreed. I like everything about the design of this game.
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Gilles Daquin
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The counters are a bit different and I would get bored if all my games were the same style.
So once in a while, it is not all that bad. However, my number one pet peeve would rather be their smallish size which is a pain. I am not a student anymore and I want most of my things big now.
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Andrew Clifford
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MikeWhit wrote:


I find the heraldry very interesting.


Mike,

Completely agree that the historic emblems add immeasurably to the flavour and attractiveness of the game. IIRC, the rules note that the NATO symbols are purely for "interest" - the distinction between armour and infantry is conveyed by the difference in layout - armour has a picture of tank with a small division motif; infantry has the motif with a small NATO icon.

BTW there's a file on the Hexasim website that details the history of each of the divisional insignia (and background on some of the history of OP Fortitude):

http://www.hexasim.com/lr/LR_insignes.pdf

It's in French, but even my schoolboy level was able to cope with most of the insignia stuff (haven't tackled the Fortitude stuff though). It's packed with geeky trivia - for example, I hadn't realised that the 15th "Scottish" division's insignia had a surrounding white circle that represents the letter "O" (15th in the alphabet).

Andrew
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武士に二言無し
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billyboy wrote:
One of the nicest looking games I've ever seen. Map and counters.


+1

F.
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武士に二言無し
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asmodeos wrote:
I absolutely love the atmosphere of this game. I've got it setup right now, and am getting ready to start my invasion. The character of the counters really makes it lovely for me. I wouldn't want the counters any other way.

It is unfortunate that you don't appreciate that.


+1 (II)

F.
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Joe Kong
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nurglepus wrote:
MikeWhit wrote:


I find the heraldry very interesting.


Mike,

Completely agree that the historic emblems add immeasurably to the flavour and attractiveness of the game. IIRC, the rules note that the NATO symbols are purely for "interest" - the distinction between armour and infantry is conveyed by the difference in layout - armour has a picture of tank with a small division motif; infantry has the motif with a small NATO icon.

BTW there's a file on the Hexasim website that details the history of each of the divisional insignia (and background on some of the history of OP Fortitude):

http://www.hexasim.com/lr/LR_insignes.pdf

It's in French, but even my schoolboy level was able to cope with most of the insignia stuff (haven't tackled the Fortitude stuff though). It's packed with geeky trivia - for example, I hadn't realised that the 15th "Scottish" division's insignia had a surrounding white circle that represents the letter "O" (15th in the alphabet).

Andrew


Will there be an English version?

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Joe Thompson
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Have you seen the "vintage 80's counters" in the files section?
 
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Scott G
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I like the counter art. However, I am very concerned about how badly the counters seem to wear. Many pictures in replays show the counters heavily worn. Has anyone found a good way to protect them?
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Kevin Davidson

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enpeze wrote:
well, if they put it the other way round it would be nice. Eg. small unit heraldic like for those who are interested in such nostalgica (like they did it on their tank counters which are ok), but the larger part of the counter should be the smooth and clean nato symbol like every normal wargame.

Another solution could have been a more artistic one (I am grafical designer myself so I would have done it in this way) like fading the heraldic with soft colors smoothly into the background but leaving the big nato symbol in front. Eg. Lock n Load does this with the nation flag of their NaW counters and they look great without the danger of grafical overload and eye bleeding.


I think 5/8 inch counters would solve a lot of what you speak of, but then the map would get bigger. The 1/2 inch counters are becoming harder for me to see no matter the art. Still I have to say I love the Art, I find it fresh, but can understand why some would not.
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Frank Müller
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zhodanicommando wrote:
enpeze wrote:
well, if they put it the other way round it would be nice. Eg. small unit heraldic like for those who are interested in such nostalgica (like they did it on their tank counters which are ok), but the larger part of the counter should be the smooth and clean nato symbol like every normal wargame.

Another solution could have been a more artistic one (I am grafical designer myself so I would have done it in this way) like fading the heraldic with soft colors smoothly into the background but leaving the big nato symbol in front. Eg. Lock n Load does this with the nation flag of their NaW counters and they look great without the danger of grafical overload and eye bleeding.


I think 5/8 inch counters would solve a lot of what you speak of, but then the map would get bigger. The 1/2 inch counters are becoming harder for me to see no matter the art. Still I have to say I love the Art, I find it fresh, but can understand why some would not.



The size of counters are small, thats correct and it would be fine if they are greater. But this would not tackle the basic problem.

There IS a good reason why the majority (or maybe even all) of other wargames dont use this messy and graphically bloated style which shows on the greater part of the (alredy very small) counter instead of clean unit infos just heraldic which has absolutely no purpose in the game.

In games from real graphical designers who know what can be done in a wargame and what not, like those from GMTs Simonitch, you would never find such an obstructive "style".
 
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Leo Zappa
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Aliquippa
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I actually agree with the OP. I find the huge unit patch images to be a distraction and not terribly attractive. I want my "NATO" unit symbols (or armor silhouette) to be the most prominent feature on my counters, both from a visual unit type identification standpoint, and my own aesthetic preference. Smaller unit images perhaps in the corner of each counter, which would otherwise be a standard wargame unit counter, would have been preferable to me. As Wendell stated, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Overdone:


Much Better (to me):

This image is for Bitter Woods (fourth edition)
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George Norris
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joekong_hk wrote:


Will there be an English version?


The language in the document isn't terrible difficult, if there's enough interest I could translate it.
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Joe Kong
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Moocizzle wrote:
joekong_hk wrote:


Will there be an English version?


The language in the document isn't terrible difficult, if there's enough interest I could translate it.


Great! thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

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R Harrison
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ShallowThought wrote:
I found sorting them to be a pain, so have some sympathy with the OP.


I actually found the large division badges made it easier for me to sort the counters for play. One of the reasons I bought this game was the beautiful map and counter art. But I understand some people will not like the counter designs.
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