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Subject: Pueblo Revolt and "resetting" cubes during subsequent victory checks rss

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Tom Chick
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In my early games, the Pueblo Revolt event has had a habit of sticking around for a while, presumably keeping the Spanish busy over in New Mexico. I get that this means I can't mess with the AI instructions, no way, no how. In at least one game, this has effectively hobbled the next two historical events. The Franciscans and the new governor who seems to rile up the Utes and Comanches don't get to affect the counters. Fair enough. I'm assuming this is working as intended, because the idea is that everyone's hands are full with the Pueblos next door. Thanks, Pueblos!

But what I'm unclear on is how to manage the cubes during the revolt. The card clearly says not to reset the cubes, which obviously means I can Passage of Time and Planning Phase until the cows come home, but the cubes will stay put in their respective bowls waiting for three of them to stack up in the subjugation box.

What's unclear to me is whether subsequent victory checks are affected by the Pueblo Revolt's "DON'T RESET THE CUBES" rule. I ask because step 9 under the sequence for victory checks nowhere uses the phrase "reset cubes". In other the rules book and the player aid, it instead explicitly tells me to move the cubes in the same manner as resetting, but without using the term "reset". Is that intentional?

I'm 99% positive step 9 is just written imprecisely and it should simply read "reset the cubes", especially since a strict reading of the rules would draw out the Pueblo revolt even longer. But I just wanted to verify with you guys and hopefully Joel that I'm doing it right.

-Tom
 
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Tucker Taylor
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TomChick wrote:
In my early games, the Pueblo Revolt event has had a habit of sticking around for a while

I am really curious as to how you're managing this. You're spending all the enemy APs on Subjugating (ie, drawing one cube per AP and putting all the non-red ones in Recovery and not Raided), and discarding the Pueblo Revolt once you get three red cubes, right?

Also, Step 9 in the Victory Check isn't technically 'resetting cubes,' it's moving all cubes, Raided and Recovery, back to the pool. So, I guess if you're lucky enough to have the Franciscans (or De Galvez) show up during the Pueblo Revolt, everyone is so distracted that the pueblos continue revolting.
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Joel Toppen
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Quote:
I am really curious as to how you're managing this. You're spending all the enemy APs on Subjugating (ie, drawing one cube per AP and putting all the non-red ones in Recovery and not Raided), and discarding the Pueblo Revolt once you get three red cubes, right?


My thoughts exactly. Be sure the non-red cubes go to Recovery and you DO NOT RESET the cubes.

In hundreds of games, I've never had the Pueblo Revolt event overlap into de Galvez. Statistically, that just shouldn't happen.

-Joel
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Tom Chick
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Ah, I see what I've done! I mistakenly interpreted Pueblo Revolt as somehow *replacing* the usual enemy operations part of an operations card. So I was just using the APs from the Pueblo Revolt (+1), plus whatever was in the Subjugation box (+1 or +2), but minus what I'd gotten in the raided box. This meant the enemy was missing out on all the APs from the card and the revolt therefore took an inordinately long time to resolve as he basically pulled one (!) cube every turn. My bad for not following the rules more closely.

And thanks for the clarification for how step 9 differs from a normal cube reset. That makes sense.

-Tom
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Dennis Ku
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joel_m_toppen wrote:


In hundreds of games, I've never had the Pueblo Revolt event overlap into de Galvez. Statistically, that just shouldn't happen.

-Joel


Hundreds of games!!! I'm currently in the middle of my fourth game, and it takes me about 3 evenings to complete one game. I wonder if I'll ever hit a hundred games of Navajo Wars!
 
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Joel Toppen
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I think the first beta version of the game made an ugly appearance at the GMT October weekend back in 2010. Since then I've spent many, many hours designing, developing, fine-tuning, and tweaking the game you now hold. I'm glad I have such a supportive wife who puts up with my obsessions!
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Steve Westrip
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JazzFish wrote:
TomChick wrote:
In my early games, the Pueblo Revolt event has had a habit of sticking around for a while

I am really curious as to how you're managing this. You're spending all the enemy APs on Subjugating (ie, drawing one cube per AP and putting all the non-red ones in Recovery and not Raided), and discarding the Pueblo Revolt once you get three red cubes, right?

Also, Step 9 in the Victory Check isn't technically 'resetting cubes,' it's moving all cubes, Raided and Recovery, back to the pool. So, I guess if you're lucky enough to have the Franciscans (or De Galvez) show up during the Pueblo Revolt, everyone is so distracted that the pueblos continue revolting.


Where does it say to discard the Pueblo Revolt card when 3 red cubes are out? Not on the card, that is for sure!
 
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Tucker Taylor
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sgwestrip wrote:
Where does it say to discard the Pueblo Revolt card when 3 red cubes are out? Not on the card, that is for sure!

On the chart for the effects of drawing red cubes. On mine it's on the inside, on the middle page, on the bottom.
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Steve Westrip
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Great. Thanks!
 
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Interestingly, I had the same question.
It popped up durig my play of the instruction game started in the Playbook. "Pueblo Revolt" was out, and I managed to keep it out for more than 3 Operations cards. Combined with the Ceremony cards that came up, it was easy as pie to draw the final Historical Event of the scenario (can't remember the name) before "Pueblo Revolt" was discarded.

As the cards are shuffled into their respective parts of the final draw deck (which, if I remember correctly, is also how the Deck is prepared in other scenarios), it is quite feasible that another Historical Event could appear only three rounds or so after "Pueblo Revolt".

In my particular case, it didn't make any difference, since the game ended directly afterwards. However, I still come back to the question of the OP, since it IS feasible that a similar situation occurs.

What, then, to do with the instruction on said second Historical Event?
Is it a "resetting" of cubes, even if it does not use the same terminology? Or is it NOT a resetting of cubes, thereby potentially helping the "Pueblo Revolt" card to maybe stay a bit longer on the table (due to decreased odds of drawing red cubes)?

BTW, and off-topic:
I guess that it is a feasible strategy to NOT do a Victory check on the final Historical Event (instead using Good Medicine) if it enhances the chance of Victory...?

Found the answer to that one...
 
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Thom0909
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It's not hard to have the Franciscan event hit when Pueblo Revolt is still in play. They're talking about the next event, which will be further down the line.

I don't think there are any issues with Franciscan bumping up against Pueblo Revolt. I had it happen in my first play, but can't remember the details of execution. Caveat: I haven't played much (and maybe none of this answers your question).
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David Gardner
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In my first play, begun this morning, the first card out was Pueblo Revolt! Still trying to understand the implications of all this. I take it that it's good.

--DG
 
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Thom0909
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David Gardner wrote:
In my first play, begun this morning, the first card out was Pueblo Revolt! Still trying to understand the implications of all this. I take it that it's good.

--DG


I had it pop up first in my first game (post-walk through) and I cheated by dumping it back a few cards. I felt it would inhibit my learning the game because it does change the execution of enemy orders a good bit.
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David Gardner
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That's probably the best idea. I think I'll just re-randomize those top 9 cards so that it isn't first. It was just a weird way to open up a game to which I'm new. Good advice. Thanks. --DG
 
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Sorry, but my question hasn't been answered yet...

...is an effect such as that of the Franciscans meant to be understood as a "resetting of cubes" (which would be prevented by Pueblo Revolt), or is it a similar effect, but not the same...?
 
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Thomas Chipman
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Dumon wrote:
Sorry, but my question hasn't been answered yet...

...is an effect such as that of the Franciscans meant to be understood as a "resetting of cubes" (which would be prevented by Pueblo Revolt), or is it a similar effect, but not the same...?


while pueblo revolt is in effect, you do not perform the reset cubes action. it does not matter if the reset would have been caused by player actions, enemy operations, or victory point checks; cubes do not get reset

edit: this may or not be correct with regard to step9 of the vp check. the more i think about it, the more i'm leaning towards it not being a correct interpretation.
 
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Tucker Taylor
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nunyabisnas wrote:
Dumon wrote:
...is an effect such as that of the Franciscans meant to be understood as a "resetting of cubes" (which would be prevented by Pueblo Revolt), or is it a similar effect, but not the same...?

while pueblo revolt is in effect, you do not perform the reset cubes action. it does not matter if the reset would have been caused by player actions, enemy operations, or victory point checks; cu.bes do not get reset

Yes, but the Victory Point check doesn't say "reset cubes," it says "remove all cubes from the Raided and Recovery bowls." It's a valid question, and one I'd like to have answered as well.
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While I would understand it similarly, I have a problem regarding what you termed "reset action".
Because, actually, while performing a Victory Check, you do not perform a reset action.

The Reset Action is defined as moving cubes from the Recovery space to th bag, and from the Raided Cubes space to the Recovery space. Basically shifting cubes.
The Victory Check section of the rules mentions that you should move all cubes on board (except for the ones in the Subjugation Box) back into the bag. Also, it does not refer to this as a Reset Action.

Again, while I would understand it similarly, there is an ambiguity regarding game terminology, here. And I'd really like to have an answer that's quotable...
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Thomas Chipman
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Dumon wrote:

Again, while I would understand it similarly, there is an ambiguity regarding game terminology, here. And I'd really like to have an answer that's quotable...


good point. it seems i misremembered step9 of the vp check as being a reset cubes action, whereas i see now that it is something entirely different. i'll add myself to the list of people eager to hear joel's clarification =-)
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I don't know the official answer, but I would guess you shouldn't touch the cubes when Pueblo Revolt is in play, even if Fransiscan comes up. It counts as a reset...not allowed.

The reason? We shouldn't want Pueblo Revolt to drag on even longer.
 
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It can be quite beneficial to have a longer revolt, much as it can be very beneficial to have a strong raid.
As stated above, in terminology as well as in mechanism both situations are nowhere near the same, although similar. However, much the same can be said for several parts of the game...

Which is why, I am sad to say, I find your argument wanting...
 
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Thom0909
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It's not a question of being beneficial, it's an issue of why they would most likely extend the revolt further. We have Joel saying above that he never saw Pueblo Revolt around when Galvez hit. It's not something that's supposed to happen, but seems more likely to happen if Franciscan allows a reset-by-another-name.

But I'm just speculating.

EDIT: And speculating wrongly! I do appreciate that there's narrative justification for it.
 
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Joel Toppen
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Dumon wrote:
Sorry, but my question hasn't been answered yet...

...is an effect such as that of the Franciscans meant to be understood as a "resetting of cubes" (which would be prevented by Pueblo Revolt), or is it a similar effect, but not the same...?


Edit, sorry. I misunderstood the question. Removing cubes during a Victory Check is not a Reset Cubes act. Therefore, it is allowed while card 41 is in play.

Joel
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Joel Toppen
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Follow-up: the proposed situation can happen, but should be rare. The narrative would go like this:

The Pueblos revolt and oust the Spaniards. But then the Church steps in and interferes with the situation, prolonging the reconquest of New Mexico.

Meanwhile, the building of Missions on the Dinétah leaves the Diné with a dilemma: attack the missions or let them remain. Attacking could speed the reconquest — Navajo negotiate and agree to help the Spanish if they withdraw the outpost...

-Joel
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Joel, it's not exactly the question that you answered, but I take it that means the instruction given in the rules regarding a victory check are meant to be a "Reset Cubes" (albeit an augmented one)?
Which, in turn, means that it is preempted by Pueblo Revolt...

If so, it should be worded more clearly in a future installment of the rulebook. Maybe include: "(this counts as a Resetting of Cubes)"
 
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