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First the praise:
AWESOME!!!!
The components, the artwork, the stuff, the idea, the realization.
I am wowed beyond comparison...

...and I haven't even read further than page 4 of the rules, nor looked at the scenarios...

That said...
...I haven't even read further than page 4 of the rules, nor looked at the scenarios...
...and already have a question that is not tackled by the rules...


About the Crewmen...
...how exactly are they used?
I mean, I read that all the rules of the base game apply. But what about Friday or the Dog?
Are they used in addition to Friday? It is clear that you can use more than one of these in the Campaign (if you make it easy), but can you also use Friday and/or the Dog?

And what about the general scenarios?
Are there any suggestions as to how many to use? In addition to Friday and/or the Dog, or as a replacement?

If they can be used in addition, and more than two, the question would become "with which markers"?
Or is there a recommended maximum of helpful cards (two maybe)?

Unfortunately, these questions are not answered in the rules of the expansion. However, I am sure that you have them, somewhere...


Still, kudos to Bob.
From what I read (so far), the rules are worded and presented in a concise and clear way. Even if mistakes (or omissions) happen. I know that all too well myself...

I hope I will not find any more open question, and if so, then at least not many more. Still, with a game such as this, they probably are bound to come up...
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I don't have a copy of the final rules and don't have my copy of game yet but this should be covered in rules. Maybe they took it out to make space?They are in addition to normal charachters. 1 for hard, 2 for med and 3 for easy if memroy serves and can be used in base game. As for tokens use whatever you want there should be plenty in the box.
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Yes, there was a table in there, but it only related to the expansion. Additional information pertaining to general use was missing.

However, even if this table is for both the expansion and the base game, this doesn't explain how to use them pertaining Friday or the Dog.

Yes, they make it easier, but according to the table, using 1 Crewman is Standard. Does that pertain to the base game also? Meaning that we did not play standard setting all along, but hard?
Just asking, because that would be important...

Also, if 1 is standard, can we also combine them with Friday and the Dog, to make it easy? What about different player numbers?

And regarding tokens...
...well, there is a Friday pawn and a Dog pawn in the base game. There is no additional pawn (besides the Darwin pawn) in the expansion box.
So how to use the three crew"men" that need a pawn?

Especially since it is possible (yet unlikely) that the players need all grey/brown/red/green pawns in a regular game. What's more, in the most unlikely circumstance there even is one less provided than necessary, already - in the base game, that is...

These things are not addressed completely or clearly in the rules. Yes, we can mix and match, and such, for ourselves. And we can help out with additional material from other games and such.
But then, if additional pawns are needed, why wasn't this discussed before printing? Furthermore, why isn't there a hint in the rules?

Okay, I am not so much interested in the "why" as in in the "how". No matter who's fault it is, if it got forgotten, or omitted, or overlooked - the important thing would be to have a clear ruling regarding this...


...you know how I am about clear rulings. Now, I don't want to get on Ignacy's nerves already, seeing that he just returned from the fair and must be pretty exhausted. But I figured you should know the rules at least as good as he does...
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HI

This is how I do it:
In the base-game only Friday and Dog, or 2 of the new crewmen, but not Friday and Dog plus 2 crewmen.
In the expansion I would use Friday, Dog plus 1 or 2 crewman, at least in scenarios 3 and 4, because they are tougher than tough.
Later on, after a couple of games have been won, reduce the helpers.
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Do what you like. In the base game follow the standard rules of Friday and the Dog for one player, or if this is too difficult add more crewmen to help.

In a 2, 3, or 4 player game you can always add Friday and/or dog to make the game more easier, but you can't really do this in a 1 player game (Friday and dog are already in use). Adding another 'character' and/or changing event card types are the only real ways to make the game easier.

In the expansion use the standard Friday and dog in one player and add one or more characters to make the game easier.

If you want you could also try out the variant Marion suggested above.

The bottom line is that this game is thematic. You wash ashore (or go ashore with Darwin) and have an adventure. Sometimes you are with crewmen, sometimes you meet Friday, sometimes a dog, etc... Who knows?? Each time will be a different adventure.

With regards to action pawns I hear what you are saying. However, I think there is enough. The base game comes with an extra pawn (tan in portal version) this can be used as one action pawn for horse, or boy. I guess if you get both the horse and boy you might have a problem (I will try to give you a formal answer when I have my copy of the base game). The surgeon doesn't really need an action pawn because he either gathers medicinal herbs or uses them and doesn't really need a pawn to be placed on the board, maybe just something to cover a spot on his card, you can use any of the pawns or tokens from the base game if you like. The parrot and lookout don't need action tokens. Running out of 'health cubes' might be an issue too, but just substitute with another colored cube.

Thanks for your kind words Dumon, and thanks for giving this expansion your critique. Let me know if you find any other issues with the game and we'll see if I can't help make things more clear for everyone. Sorry for any ambiguities. It is important that we get any issues with the crewman deck worked out, because there are plans in work to........... *content removed to prevent spoilers*.......
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Robert, I know that the game is thematic.
And I know that, ultimately, doing this however I want will not "break" the game, per se, as the game is devised in a way that it cannot be broken by mistakes regarding details...

However, even if the game is thematic, "do what you like" does not cut it. Even a game as thematic as this needs clear, distinct, rules.
Regarding the crewmen, this would mean something like:

In the base game:
- if playing solo, add 1 crewman to make it easier, but 2 at the most.
- if playing with 2, 3 or 4 players, you may add 1 crewman to make it easier, or 2 at the most. You can, of course, always substitute crewmen with Friday or the Dog

In the Campaign:
- take the chart into consideration if you play with 2, 3 or 4 players
- if playing solo, add Friday and the Dog as usual, and additionally use the chart

However, you can (of course) always use more crewmen to make it even easier.


Unfortunately there is not an additional pawn in the base game. What you are referring to is the game round marker. Yes, it is too big for what it should do, but ultimately it is not an additional pawn.

It is true that you will most likely have enough pawns, though. If you play with 4 players, you will not use both the Dog and Friday as well as some crewmen. This way, you can always use the pawns of the Dog and Friday. In all other games, you can use player pawns as a substitute.
Still, an additional sentence in the rules would have helped a lot, here. Such things, even if they can be inferred, need to be part of the rules, to heighten understanding:

Use the pawns of Friday and the Dog for the crewmen. Using Friday, the Dog and one or more crewmen will most likely only happen in games with less than 4 players. Use pawns of a player colour not used for the crewmen in this situation. In any other situation, if the game material is not enough, please use appropriate replacements.


That said, all I want is
a) to help and
b) to get to a ruling (as part of an FAQ, or something) that is generally applicable

Because there will be a German version, and rules omitted or forgotten should find their way into it...


However, I guess that there will not be many of this kind. Alas, I don't know until I take a closer look. Which I will, soon.
For now, please give us an "officially worded" suggestion as to how to use the crewmen correctly. Because pointing out options doesn't help - we recognized them already...


PS:
I hate rules lawyers and rules lawyering. However, in writing rules one has to become one, I had to learn...
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In the base game add one or more crewman to make the game easier.

In the expansion follow the rules printed in the rule book.

Replacing Friday and the Dog with crewmen may be played as a variant, but the actions they provide are very valuable and some crewmen do not provide actions, so this may not be a good idea. Making this decision should be left to the players and treated as a 'variant'. I prefer to make this statement instead of a 'hard and fast rule' like the rule about only using the soldier in a 3 or 4 player game.

The 'game round marker' can be replaced with the ship pawn included in the expansion, as explained in the rulebook. I don't use the 'game round marker' for this task anyways because it is too large for certain scenarios like Volcano Island.

I know all you want to do is help. You have a keen eye for catching things that fall through the cracks and I can see you deeply care about this game otherwise you wouldn't have made this post. Thank you.

Dude, don't front, I know you love rules lawyering just as much as I do. This is important when you want to make a great game.
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Thank you.

Stupid question - "don't front"? As fit as I am in the language, I cannot help but be ignorant regarding this idiom. Please enlighten me...


And I really hate rules lawyering, in general. But I love playing a game as intended, and I love clear rules. That is why, in designing or reworking them, one needs to be a rules lawyer...



Another question:
Isn't it going to be too easy if you add crewmen AND Friday and/or Dog to games with more than 1 player? I know, too easy is subjective, but then, shouldn't there be a recommendation, also?

Oh, btw. replacing crewmen with Friday and/or the Dog was ever only an option regarding Base Game, not the expansion (of course). That way, you could add either Friday or the Dog or crewmen, or a combination, to make the Base Game easier.


Just another add-on:
The crewmen are not variants, they are components now. Presenting them as components to be usable with the base game (universal components), these things need to be adressed. And in doing so, they themselves (and how they are used) are not a variant, but a general rules package...
 
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haaaahaa. 'Don't front' is an Ebonics term that means 'don't kid yourself' or a casual way of saying 'don't lie' or 'don't misrepresent yourself'.

The crewmen deck was designed to add characters with various strengths. Some will be very strong and others will be not very strong. But the stronger ones have limitations like being affected by weather and needing to house or feed, which even them out. Try playing with them and let me know what you think. Again, they are used to make the game easier, you will see how they are needed in the expansion, as the scenarios are pretty darn difficult without them.

Dude, you are confusing me with all this theoretical stuff, why don't you try out a few games and tell me what you think.

With regards to 'variant'
Again, I don't have a final copy of the rules, just the final text document I sent to the Portal team, so I can't address everything right now, but as far as I can see:
Crewman cards are components and how they are to be used in the expansion is pretty clear (what was not clear was how they were used in base game). A 'variant' would be how you use the components differently. So using them in the base game would be a 'variant' of the base game, because those rules are already outlined and Marion's idea of replacing Friday and dog with crewman IS a variant as well, just as adding Friday/dog to a 4 player game is a variant. With this game there are tons of 'variants' already i.e. trait cards, altering event card types, selecting items ahead of time, etc... What makes it different is whether it is an official variant or just a player made variant, which I guess matters to most people.

However, Ignacy might have a different view on all of this, and he is the Captain of this ship, so his ruling trumps anything I said above. When he recovers from Essen he might chime in and make a ruling that agrees or disagrees with my statements. I will gladly yield the floor to him and will let him make this call.

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As you don't have a final copy of the rules, you will probably not know that the crewmen (to be used in the Base Game) are not presented as a variant, but as a general add-on, i.e. as additional components part of the base game.

I like them. A lot.
But I don't come from practical experience. Never have.
Heck, I wrote the new German rules with 6 or 7 games under my belt, and never having played scenarios 5-8.
The theoretical stuff is important, because rules are theory. Nothing more. They are the theoretical way of putting practical things into words. As such, they need to be as encompassing and as clear as possible.
But I'm preaching to the choir, here...


This discussion got out of hand, quickly, I guess.
Still, we need a decisive ruling in the FAQ, precisely because the rules are not clear on their use so far. Now, it probably is not a pressing matter, but it should be tackled at some point. Possibly when you have your own copy of the rules, or when Ignacy has the time to answer...
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Dumon, is it really such a big deal?
Robert said it very well, I couldn´t do it any better.
Let´s play some scenarios together soon, I call you next week.
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No, of course not.
It is, however, something that is unclear, and needs clarification.
Because
a) it CAN be clarified and
b) people will ask the same question

Now, I don't know yet if I will work on the German version of the expansion, but I don't like open questions I could have found the answer to. Because that is just shoddy work, then.

Understand that I will overlook things, too. But knowing something and NOT tackling it is unprofessional...
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I can tell you RIGHT now that "play as you want" is NOT an option

And I agree 120% with Dumon.
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OK, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding here, so I'll make it simple.

Base game: Add one or more crewman to make the game easier.

Expansion: Follow rules printed in rulebook

Unofficial variant: Replace Friday/dog with crewmen.

Tokens: Use action pawns provided in base game. (If you think about it there will be plenty. In a 1 player game there are 6 unused action pawns that can be used. In a 4 player game there is Friday and Dog action pawn that can be used. Replace 'round marker' with 'ship pawn' as outlined in rulebook and that gives one extra action token. Again, let me get my copy and we'll work out some more details.)

Does this make things 130% clear?
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Yes, Bob, we gathered that.

However, what about Friday and the Dog?
They are used to make the game easier.
Do you use them in addition to the Crewmen? Or instead of? Or a mixture?

And there are only enough pawns if you do not use 4 players and Friday and the Dog. Once you do so, there possibly aren't.

This is why we need specific rules.
Say:
Use 1 Crewman to make the base game easier, or use Friday, as per the usual rules.
If you want an even easier game, you can use more Crewmen to do so. You can also use the Dog, or any combination thereof.

I know that it is hard to understand, and we are splitting hairs a bit, but in order to provide a concise rulebook, splitting hairs is vital!

[Edit]
I just realized that I myself am unclear in my questions right now.
So I ask again:

1. In the expansion (1 or 2 player game), if I understand correctly, we use "crewmen" in addition to Friday and/or the Dog, correct?

2. In the expansion (3 or 4 players) we do NOT use Friday or the Dog, correct?

3. In the base game (1 or 2 player) game, we use crewmen in addition to Friday and/or the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

4. In the base game (3 or 4 players), we use either crewmen OR Friday OR the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

5. If we want the base game easier, we use 1 crewman. If we want it even more easier, we use additional crewmen, as per our personal taste. Correct?

We need suggestions and clear-cut instructions. Use this and/or that. We do not sell a sandbox, we sell a game with concise rules.

Now, please understand, these questions do not come from me, Dumon, the player. These questions come from me, Dumon, the rules analyst. And maybe the rules translator...
 
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To make things LESS clear a proposal:

1. In the expansion (1 or 2 player game), if I understand correctly, we use "crewmen" in addition to Friday and/or the Dog, correct?

I see it that way.

2. In the expansion (3 or 4 players) we do NOT use Friday or the Dog, correct?

Same here.

3. In the base game (1 or 2 player) game, we use crewmen in addition to Friday and/or the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

Would EXPLICITLY prohibit that.

4. In the base game (3 or 4 players), we use either crewmen OR Friday OR the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

Same here: No Go.

5. If we want the base game easier, we use 1 crewman. If we want it even more easier, we use additional crewmen, as per our personal taste. Correct?

And no to that as well.

At least that is how I would handle it. *hinthint*
But is there an "official" way Marion has playtested it?

botanybob wrote:


Unofficial variant: Replace Friday/dog with crewmen.



While I do like that idea: has it been playtested regarding interactions?
 
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please read what I wrote in my last post and use that to answer your questions. It should also be written in the rules that all rules from the base game apply unless otherwise noted. I need 2 load A combine on a truck now and drive it to the field so I will try and address your refined question list at lunch time. Thanks again dumon for your eagle eye.
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benji_online wrote:

3. In the base game (1 or 2 player) game, we use crewmen in addition to Friday and/or the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

Would EXPLICITLY prohibit that.


Benjamin, that does not make sense.
If we use the general rules, in a solo game you need to use Friday and the Dog for standard setup. So, to make things easier, you NEED crewmen in addition to that.

This is the clincher, or one of two...

benji_online wrote:

4. In the base game (3 or 4 players), we use either crewmen OR Friday OR the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

Same here: No Go.

Same here. In the base game, we use Friday or the Dog to make the game easier. If we would ADD crewmen, that would mean we would make the game easy beyond comprehension...

benji_online wrote:

5. If we want the base game easier, we use 1 crewman. If we want it even more easier, we use additional crewmen, as per our personal taste. Correct?

And no to that as well.

Honestly, I do not understand this notion at all.
Are you saying that crewmen need to be used ONLY in the expansion?

The thing is, crewmen are presented as material to be used in the base game also. This is fact.
Therefore, we need rules to explain HOW.
Negating their use in the base game, or prohibiting it, is nonsensical.

benji_online wrote:

At least that is how I would handle it. *hinthint*

Whatever hinthint means, your argumentation sadly lacks the basis it seems to be built upon. And also lacks argumentation in total.
If you don't like crewmen as possible part of the base game, that is your prerogative. Sadly, that has nothing to do with production. Yes, you could change this again in the upcoming German version. But please, don't. We have enough discrepancies as is...
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Dumon wrote:
benji_online wrote:

3. In the base game (1 or 2 player) game, we use crewmen in addition to Friday and/or the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

Would EXPLICITLY prohibit that.


Benjamin, that does not make sense.
If we use the general rules, in a solo game you need to use Friday and the Dog for standard setup. So, to make things easier, you NEED crewmen in addition to that.

This is the clincher, or one of two...

benji_online wrote:

4. In the base game (3 or 4 players), we use either crewmen OR Friday OR the Dog to make the game easier, correct?

Same here: No Go.

Same here. In the base game, we use Friday or the Dog to make the game easier. If we would ADD crewmen, that would mean we would make the game easy beyond comprehension...

benji_online wrote:

5. If we want the base game easier, we use 1 crewman. If we want it even more easier, we use additional crewmen, as per our personal taste. Correct?

And no to that as well.

Honestly, I do not understand this notion at all.
Are you saying that crewmen need to be used ONLY in the expansion?

The thing is, crewmen are presented as material to be used in the base game also. This is fact.
Therefore, we need rules to explain HOW.
Negating their use in the base game, or prohibiting it, is nonsensical.

benji_online wrote:

At least that is how I would handle it. *hinthint*

Whatever hinthint means, your argumentation sadly lacks the basis it seems to be built upon. And also lacks argumentation in total.
If you don't like crewmen as possible part of the base game, that is your prerogative. Sadly, that has nothing to do with production. Yes, you could change this again in the upcoming German version. But please, don't. We have enough discrepancies as is...


Looks like you misunderstood me. Massively. Like totally.

Let me put in a Bill Maher format:
New Rule:
In the base game (1 or 2 player) game, we use Friday and/or the Dog to make the game easier. No crewmen allowed.

In the base game (3 or 4 players), we use Friday OR the Dog to make the game easier. No crewmen allowed.

Or to quote you:
"Same here. In the base game, we use Friday or the Dog to make the game easier. If we would ADD crewmen, that would mean we would make the game easy beyond comprehension..."

My point exactly.

"The thing is, crewmen are presented as material to be used in the base game also. This is fact.
Therefore, we need rules to explain HOW.
Negating their use in the base game, or prohibiting it, is nonsensical."

Really. How come? I find that perfectly reasonable. And your points seem to underline that well. But this discussion has no point here between us at least.
 
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So your proposal is to ignore the section in the rules that lists Crewmen as material to be used in the base game?

And I didn't misunderstand - that is what I wrote above...
 
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benji_online wrote:
But is there an "official" way Marion has playtested it?
botanybob wrote:
Unofficial variant: Replace Friday/dog with crewmen.
While I do like that idea: has it been playtested regarding interactions?


I tested the "Boy", the "Parrot" and the "Horse". "Lookout" and "Surgeon" had not been created yet while I was playtesting.
I tested them alone, interacting, 1 crewman with Friday, another one with the Dog, 2 crewman in every combination.

I never played with more than 2 helpers.

The new crewdeck doesn´t make the expansion-scenarios ridiculously easy! But without them you have a really hard time winning some of them.

I would not say that the crewmen are stronger than Friday and the Dog.
For some scenarios in the expansion, if playing solo or 2-player, I recommend even 3 helpers - later on of course reducing them.

For the base game, exchanging Friday/Dog with 2 crewmen, or mixing Friday/Dog with 1 crewman, does not make the game radically easier..

Ignacy gave us quite a few possibilities to make the game easier, like starting with more items, shuffling fewer book-icon cards into the event-deck.....

The players will use the drewdeck anyway how they like, just like a lot of players have houserules for issues they don´t like or understand.

The rules for the expansion regarding the crewmen-deck are alright.

For the base game a simple addition like "For a 1- and 2-player game choose 2 helpers from Friday/Dog/Crewmen" would suffice.

(argh.... just my opinion...... there will be some "but" and "why" and "how" and whatnot..... I´m sure...)

Personally, I´m almost desperate for finding a way to win Cannibal-Island. I´m seriously thinking about using maybe 3 crewmen instead of Friday and the Dog.
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Thank you, Marion, for the insight.
And now either some people need to agree upon, or one of the deciders needs to tell us the one rule to govern it all. Or somesuch...
 
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maho wrote:
never played with more than 2 helpers.

The new crewdeck doesn´t make the expansion-scenarios ridiculously easy! But without them you have a really hard time winning some of them.




I was talking about them making the base game easier.
 
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Benjamin Schoenheiter
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Dumon wrote:
So your proposal is to ignore the section in the rules that lists Crewmen as material to be used in the base game?

And I didn't misunderstand - that is what I wrote above...


Still dont think you did, as some of your comments contradict my statements in such a way, that they say exactly what I meant in the first place

But for my proposal: Yes. And I don't think I'm alone. But Marion is more than welcome to write me an e-mail, what she thinks.

The lack of mentioning a proper integration into the base game - something you have brought up - is letting me err on the side of caution. But we will see.
 
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benji_online wrote:
maho wrote:
never played with more than 2 helpers.

The new crewdeck doesn´t make the expansion-scenarios ridiculously easy! But without them you have a really hard time winning some of them.




I was talking about them making the base game easier.


Of course it would make the base game much easier if you use the 2 crewmen in addition to Friday and the Dog. But if you play with 2 helpers, chosen from Friday/dog/cremwen, it is not easier.
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