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DreadBall: The Futuristic Sports Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Judwan Stats Question rss

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Geoff Burbidge
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In the Season 2 rules Judwan have a speed of 3+
In the Season 3 rules Judwan have a speed of 4+

Does anyone know which is the correct stat? Is Season 3 a misprint or were the Judwan stats adjusted to better balance the team?
 
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Mark Thompson
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4+ is the correct value. They were errata'ed due to major OPness.
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Jeremy Laverty
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The Judwan were given +4 speed in the Season 3 book. It's in the Errata section.
 
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Geoff Burbidge
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Thanks guys. I didn't see the errata and there seem to be a few other errors in the chart in the back of the season 3 rules. Glad they at least got the Judwan correct.
 
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Andrew Wodzianski
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r0cky143 wrote:
4+ is the correct value. They were errata'ed due to major OPness.


I'm still shocked this was the "solution" to a problem, that IMO, did not exist. The Judwan, as written in the S2 book, could be held back and hurt if an opponent adjusted their play style, focused on defense, and stayed disciplined. Instead, people cried "no fair" and Jake caved. Changing the launch rule was okay (though not necessary), but switching a team's stats is exceptionally lame.
 
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Jeff Brewer
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drewcula wrote:
r0cky143 wrote:
4+ is the correct value. They were errata'ed due to major OPness.


I'm still shocked this was the "solution" to a problem, that IMO, did not exist. The Judwan, as written in the S2 book, could be held back and hurt if an opponent adjusted their play style, focused on defense, and stayed disciplined. Instead, people cried "no fair" and Jake caved. Changing the launch rule was okay (though not necessary), but switching a team's stats is exceptionally lame.


This...
 
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Jonah Rees
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Not at all, Judwan were far too overpowered at Speed 3+. They were simply too good at everything, and because they were all Strikers (which are already the best players) they could comfortably score with only a few players on the pitch, and it was too hard to try to hit them and score as well which is necessary to stop yourself getting landslided. I've played against Speed 3+ Judwan on many times, and several times against Speed 4+, and it is a far more balanced game with them being 4+.
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Kolby Reddish
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jonahmaul wrote:
Not at all, Judwan were far too overpowered at Speed 3+. They were simply too good at everything, and because they were all Strikers (which are already the best players) they could comfortably score with only a few players on the pitch, and it was too hard to try to hit them and score as well which is necessary to stop yourself getting landslided. I've played against Speed 3+ Judwan on many times, and several times against Speed 4+, and it is a far more balanced game with them being 4+.


Couldn't agree more. With speed of 3 beating the Judwan was very tough, because to actually take a player out cost you far too many actions, and didnt hurt them enough.
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Luke Stirling
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Looked at from a game design point of view, even if Judwan were beatable at 3+ speed, there are strong arguments to be made for their tweaking. I will borrow Andrew's statement to illustrate:

drewcula wrote:
The Judwan, as written in the S2 book, could be held back and hurt if an opponent adjusted their play style, focused on defense, and stayed disciplined.


If we take this as a given, then the one thing that is made clear about games involving Judwan is that their involvement completely dominates the flow of play. No matter what team you are playing with you have no choice but be reactionary to Judwan plays. This means that anyone who doesn't play Judwan finds the value of the choice of team diminished. They are no longer a Corportation, Marauder, or whatever team, they are instead the reactionary opponents of Judwan. Game designs that include many different asymmetrical sides should have at least something of a rock-paper-scissors mechanism, allowing for different match ups to play out differently. When a single team's asymmetry dominates every game they play, then it's probably time to change that. Not least for the unbalanced team, as their games invariably end up being a lot duller that other people's experiences, because the types of opponents they play don't really matter.

I remember experiencing this from the "Judwan side" of things back in 3rd edition Blood Bowl. I had a Skaven team, and it was spectacularly easy to train up one-turn-touchdown players in that team. Their prevalence meant that every opponent was forced to play defensively against that, and it really wasn't much fun in the long term for anyone. When I came back to the game a decade or so later and I found that they had nerfed the easy route to one-turn-touchdowns for Skaven, I was happy to start using them again.
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Kris Vezner
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Maybe this is all too much discussion over an obvious point.

One person stated that nerfing the Judwan was a poor move.

Let me provide a contrary opinion. He is wrong.

I coached a Judwan team for a little while, got in a number of games including at a tournament. Based on my actual experience, playing actual games, Judwan were basically unbeatable. My opponents tried many strategies against me, including going totally defensive. None of these strategies worked, because I was playing Judwan.

I won every game, but it was without challenge which is unenjoyable. I quickly got bored of doing the same thing over and over again. I stopped coaching Judwan.

The Judwan however still concerned me, because any tournament I entered would be dominated by the Judwan players. I was not only happy with Judwan receiving 4+ Speed, I was surprised and happy that Mantic made the change. Publishers and designers usually resist admitting that they made a mistake and correcting that mistake. It is all too easy to just say that the problem is overstated, things aren't so bad and just move on to the next supplement or product.

And how strong are the Judwan after the nerf? In a one-off game, they are still stronger than a number of other teams. I don't think any more proof than that is necessary to justify their nerfing. But, Judwan are now beatable by a number of teams, using that team's own play style. I beat nerfed Judwan with Veer-Myn, playing mostly like Veer-Myn, even though the Judwan are in fact still a little better than Veer-Myn in my opinion.

Thank you Mantic for preserving Dreadball for tournament play. And for frankly making the Judwan more challenging and thus more fun to play, for those who like to play them.
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Jonah Rees
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kvezner wrote:
I won every game, but it was without challenge which is unenjoyable. I quickly got bored of doing the same thing over and over again. I stopped coaching Judwan.


I sold my Judwan team for much the same reasons! Although even post-nerf I can't see myself enjoying playing with them that much as they are still one dimensional. But at least I don't get so infuriated playing against them.
 
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Vaughn Wassmer
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After reading this thread I can understand the reasoning for the nerf. But then I have another question, why aren't the players cheaper now?

If Mantic really wanted to keep them balancede and fair, they should have reduced their cost. Their high player cost was created with the 3+ speed start in mind. And now that they are much more susceptible to damage, their cost should be lower so that they are less expensive to replace.

I think the reason they didn't change their cost was only because it would be too difficult because if how team revenue affects team ranking and how starting teams are already arranged to have a cost of 100mc. Though it wouldaaffect the rules alot more, I think their cost needs to be lower for it to be a truly fair balance.
 
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Jonah Rees
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On the flipside the speed change is now more balanced for their cost. Previously they were too cheap, now they are the right cost. Striker is the best position in Dreadball so having a team of them gives you advantages anyway. I don't think they've been nerfed, they've been balanced properly.
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Kolby Reddish
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jonahmaul wrote:
On the flipside the speed change is now more balanced for their cost. Previously they were too cheap, now they are the right cost. Striker is the best position in Dreadball so having a team of them gives you advantages anyway. I don't think they've been nerfed, they've been balanced properly.


Exactly
 
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