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Subject: Cash for clunkers, a progressive success story ! rss

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jeremy cobert
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The people who are ruining your healthcare...
I mean running your healthcare ...
um...(No, I guess both sentences work in this case) once thought that they could also fix the auto industry by nearly killing the used car market.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/31/a...

You know its bad when the WashPo is calling out a progressive plan !

Stay classy my incompetent friends, stay classy !
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jeremy's act has grown so tired already that the TPers are starting to eat their own.
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I find these threads can be highly amusing because the abbreviation TP to me will always mean "toilet paper" before "Tea Party".
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bjlillo wrote:
How about instead of just being a giant douchebag about the story, mix your douchebaginess in with a little information and perhaps some humor. Try something like this:

Back before absolutely everyone knew that Keynesian economics was moronic, the Bamster's Administration put forward Cash for Clunkers, a payoff to his union buddies and to people who were almost ready to buy a new car anyway.

Quote:
The program had something for everyone: It would lend a hand to the ailing U.S. auto industry. It would tamp down on oil consumption. And, once launched, the program proved so popular with consumers that it burned through $1 billion in its first five days. Sure, a few critics argued that the program wouldn't be very cost-effective, but no one was really listening.


Sold to the people as "economic stimulus + a green initiative," this new research shows that Cash for Clunkers took money from the next generation and gave it to people who wanted to buy new cars but needed that extra little push to get them over the top.

Since it's net result was to give some salespeople a good month by pulling in a few months' worth of sales into a compressed time period, Cash for Clunkers was quite ineffective at creating new jobs with each one costing an estimated $1.4 million.

As a side benefit to not creating jobs, Cash for Clunkers also made it harder for people on the lower end of the income spectrum to buy used cars by compelling those trading in their old cars to destroy them.

Good work, government. Way to use that money wisely.


Of course this is exactly.... exactly... what I said would happen, right here in RSP back when the Clunker program was enacted. Some you here today took me to task and said I didn't have a clue. It's basic math. It's not even really "economic science". Predicting the future unintended consequences of creating a false demand is easy-peasey. Understanding that borrowing money to give to people so they can borrow money for an item that devalues as soon as it is purchased while simultaneously destroying previously depreciated items that an ongoing demand already exists for... is pretty fucking stupid.

Apparently, in order to attain that level of abject stupidity you have to go to college, become a lawyer, get elected president and hire a bunch of educated gangsters to run the country.
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Junior McSpiffy
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whac3 wrote:
I find these threads can be highly amusing because the abbreviation TP to me will always mean "toilet paper" before "Tea Party".


To me, it means the same thing. If they're gonna get upset at the moniker of "Tea Baggers*", then TP is the best compromise I can come up with.








* Odd that they get so upset about it since they called themselves that in the first place
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I knew Cash for Clunkers was stupid, but I was surprised at how stupid it actually turned out to be.

Common sense indicates that crushing a bunch of working cars into cubes isn't going to have a net positive effect on the country.
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Drew1365 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I find these threads can be highly amusing because the abbreviation TP to me will always mean "toilet paper" before "Tea Party".


To me, it means the same thing. If they're gonna get upset at the moniker of "Tea Baggers*", then TP is the best compromise I can come up with.


You're really turning into "Junior One-Note" lately with your tea party hate. You trying to give competition to Dar?


Yeah, it'd be totally obnoxious if someone just posted on these forums to hate on one particular political group, right?
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rylfrazier wrote:
Common sense indicates that crushing a bunch of working cars into cubes isn't going to have a net positive effect on the country.


But...but...a broken window creates jobs for glaziers!!
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Drew1365 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I find these threads can be highly amusing because the abbreviation TP to me will always mean "toilet paper" before "Tea Party".


To me, it means the same thing. If they're gonna get upset at the moniker of "Tea Baggers*", then TP is the best compromise I can come up with.


You're really turning into "Junior One-Note" lately with your tea party hate. You trying to give competition to Dar?


Well, when people go out of their way to call me things like RINO or libtard as a way of marginalizing me since I adhere to a different flavor of conservatism... yeah. I'm gonna get miffed about it.

But you've never done that, have you... tried to marginalize a conservative because they disagree with the tactics or scale of what needs to be done? Have you? Nahhhh.....
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Why fight it? Learn to appreciate what America gives to you. Here's what I did:

$4,500 Cash for Clunker rebate
$4,500 Chrysler match
= $9,000

Add to that around $4,500 in manufacture rebates, partially for being a year old (but still new) car... and I bought a $22,000 (sticker price) car for $8,500 and my clunker.

I also received a sweet stimulus check from Bush - I think. One of them anyway.

Also, I'm pretty sure I got an Obamaphone but my wife must have it.

And when I figure out how to sign into the website I am going to have free health care. I've already told my employer to shove it. Theirs cost me like a $150 a month.

THAT'S Sky Knight X math, Yo.
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Sky Knight X wrote:
Why fight it? Learn to appreciate what America gives to you. Here's what I did:

$4,500 Cash for Clunker rebate
$4,500 Chrysler match
= $9,000

Add to that around $4,500 in manufacture rebates, partially for being a year old (but still new) car... and I bought a $22,000 (sticker price) car for $8,500 and my clunker.

I also received a sweet stimulus check from Bush - I think. One of them anyway.

Also, I'm pretty sure I got an Obamaphone but my wife must have it.

And when I figure out how to sign into the website I am going to have free health care. I've already told my employer to shove it. Theirs cost me like a $150 a month.

THAT'S Sky Knight X math, Yo.


I feel like Sky Knight is sending me a secret message that he spent $4500 on Crystal Meth.
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bjlillo wrote:
How about instead of just being a giant douchebag about the story, mix your douchebaginess in with a little information and perhaps some humor.


oh yeah, that makes sense. I wont, but that makes sense. hey look, you've managed to win friends and influence people, good job !
 
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LeeDambis wrote:
Slow news week? This program happened four friggin' years ago. It was a bad idea then, and I was happy to say so at the time. What does bringing it up again accomplish? Nothing. It certainly wouldn't make the short list, and probably not even the long list, of Obama's Greatest Blunders in the right-wing blogosphere. Even as a "chestnut" or "golden oldie," it's the equivalent of some mediocre rock band putting a live cut of an old B-side on their greatest hits album.

Yawn.



Only in RSP (or in the ObamaZombie boot camps) would a failed program that cost 2.9 billion and created new jobs at a cost of 1.4 million per job be considered a minor blunder.

The brief article doesn't even address the devastation in the massive used car industry or the cost to middle and lower income earners when prices for used cars skyrocketed. This was hardly a blip. Are we now only going to acknowledge bad policy when it loses at least a trillion or more? Does anyone here run their budget that way? Not bother with the items costing less than $100 and manage only those that cost $1000 or more?

Wow. No wonder we're fucked.
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utoption2 wrote:
Hey JC,

I liked you better when you went back to using correct grammar and capitalization. It showed your wit, humanity, and intellect.

It was amazing.

Sadly, you're regressing.

Truly yours,

Kurtz


Yeah, its probably time to adjust my medication or double down on making fun of you wingnuts.
 
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The worst part about threads against fiscal stimulus is that the conservative POV is correct for the wrong reasons.

Temporary stimulus, regardless of whether it's monetary or fiscal, goes nowhere, because at most all it does is move purchases a little bit. People don't make significant changes to their expenses because of small, one time cash influxes.

If you want to do stimulus, you have to change long term expectations. If the government says that until unemployment goes to 5%, they'd spend like drunken sailors, then people might actually make decisions expecting higher GDP. That's really what Keynesianism was about.

Now, the problem with Keynesianism is that the model was built thinking of a federal reserve that did pretty much nothing. And if the fed does nothing, then sure, the only thing you can do is go with deficit spending. However, the modern federal reserve has a fiat currency underneath, so they have large amounts of control over the monetary base, and along with it, they can help or hinder any fiscal stimulus.

So the fed could, and still can, just expand the monetary base until they like the unemployment numbers. They can also raise rates and fuck the economy over, like the ECB did in 2011, sending Southern Europe on a double dip recession. The Fed didn't do quite that bad, but they did start providing interest on reserves, which in no way helps jump start an economy.

So yeah, the fiscal stimulus was not the best idea, but it's because what Obama should have done is spend his days asking the Fed to provide both bigger stimulus and forward looking guidance to fix the economy. Because if Bernake says that he'll do whatever it takes to make NGDP grow at 6% this year, you'd have to be a loony to not treat it as something as likely as the sun coming up in the morning.
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LeeDambis wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
LeeDambis wrote:
Slow news week? This program happened four friggin' years ago. It was a bad idea then, and I was happy to say so at the time. What does bringing it up again accomplish? Nothing. It certainly wouldn't make the short list, and probably not even the long list, of Obama's Greatest Blunders in the right-wing blogosphere. Even as a "chestnut" or "golden oldie," it's the equivalent of some mediocre rock band putting a live cut of an old B-side on their greatest hits album.

Yawn.



Only in RSP (or in the ObamaZombie boot camps) would a failed program that cost 2.9 billion and created new jobs at a cost of 1.4 million per job be considered a minor blunder.

The brief article doesn't even address the devastation in the massive used car industry or the cost to middle and lower income earners when prices for used cars skyrocketed. This was hardly a blip. Are we now only going to acknowledge bad policy when it loses at least a trillion or more? Does anyone here run their budget that way? Not bother with the items costing less than $100 and manage only those that cost $1000 or more?

Wow. No wonder we're fucked.

Gee, DW, thanks for regurgitating the same arguments I was making in the Cash for Clunkers thread four years ago as a way of showing how deluded and hive-minded I must've been even then. Oh, wait....

Sure, it was a bad program. Since then, the feds have spent what, 10 trillion dollars? Surely there are better things to worry about this week than whether Obama spent 3 billion on a bad program four years ago - especially since the program and the money are long gone.

Like I said: slow news week.




While I agree with you generally that this is not that big a single mistake, the fact that:

1. It was a dumb thing.

2. Most people knew it was dumb.

3. We did it anyway.

Is kind of important to take note of now that we can actually say for sure that it was dumb.

In the future when people say "this doesn't make sense on paper" the more of these stories about things not making sense on paper then having horrible results people are exposed to, the more critical thinking (hopefully) we'll do on these kinds of subjects.

TBH this is kind of the problem with the insane conservative party we have right now. They're so flat out nuts that it's hard for me to pick out when they're actually making legitimate criticisms. When you have presidential candidates saying things like "I demand to see Obama's birth certificate" or "Romneycare Obamacare will destroy America" or "gay marriage will destroy America" etc., etc., it's hard to weed through that to find the actual legitimate criticisms when they exist.
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hibikir wrote:
The worst part about threads against fiscal stimulus is that the conservative POV is correct for the wrong reasons.

Temporary stimulus, regardless of whether it's monetary or fiscal, goes nowhere, because at most all it does is move purchases a little bit. People don't make significant changes to their expenses because of small, one time cash influxes.

If you want to do stimulus, you have to change long term expectations. If the government says that until unemployment goes to 5%, they'd spend like drunken sailors, then people might actually make decisions expecting higher GDP. That's really what Keynesianism was about.

Now, the problem with Keynesianism is that the model was built thinking of a federal reserve that did pretty much nothing. And if the fed does nothing, then sure, the only thing you can do is go with deficit spending. However, the modern federal reserve has a fiat currency underneath, so they have large amounts of control over the monetary base, and along with it, they can help or hinder any fiscal stimulus.

So the fed could, and still can, just expand the monetary base until they like the unemployment numbers. They can also raise rates and fuck the economy over, like the ECB did in 2011, sending Southern Europe on a double dip recession. The Fed didn't do quite that bad, but they did start providing interest on reserves, which in no way helps jump start an economy.

So yeah, the fiscal stimulus was not the best idea, but it's because what Obama should have done is spend his days asking the Fed to provide both bigger stimulus and forward looking guidance to fix the economy. Because if Bernake says that he'll do whatever it takes to make NGDP grow at 6% this year, you'd have to be a loony to not treat it as something as likely as the sun coming up in the morning.


The semi-independent nature of the FED means that sometimes the FED can decide to go with a highly contractionary monetary policy, while the Government goes with an expansionary fiscal policy.

Its like stomping on the accelerator and the brakes at the same time.

A good example of this is Volcker's tenure as FED chairman, and especially what happened in the early part of the Reagan administration. The country was in the midst of both high inflation and a terrible recession, and while Reagan's administration was trying to ramp up spending on the military and the like (an expansionary fiscal program), Volcker was contracting the monetary supply by pegging the dollar amount to market forces, in a move that Milton Friedman supported.

The result was terrible economic dislocation. Probably made the recession of the early 1980's worse, and laid the groundwork for later banking crises- particularly the Mexican bailout. However, Volcker did kill inflation, despite a massive increase in government spending and the debt during the Reagan years.

Darilian
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
utoption2 wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I find these threads can be highly amusing because the abbreviation TP to me will always mean "toilet paper" before "Tea Party".


To me, it means the same thing. If they're gonna get upset at the moniker of "Tea Baggers*", then TP is the best compromise I can come up with.


You're really turning into "Junior One-Note" lately with your tea party hate. You trying to give competition to Dar?


Poor, poor Drew. Still smoking at the Tea Party's defeat. That must have hurt.

Every since Dar showed you who was boss (Dar) (added for clarity and emphasis), you've resorted to cheap shots at every opportunity. Are you really that lacking at content?

Oh, that's rhetorical question.

Also, just for clarity, I think the Bamster's still a ball-less idiot.

However, so are the Tea-Baggers in Congress, but moreso.


Srsly?

Are you now part of the hive mind, Kurtz? I thought you had some independence?


We are the LiBorg. We will assimilate you.

There is no independence. There is only the LiBorg.

Darilian
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bjlillo wrote:
Darilian wrote:
We are the LiBorg. We will assimilate you.

There is no independence. There is only the LiBorg.

Darilian


No, the Borg strive for perfection and make good use of the races they assimilate. Leftists strive to bring everyone down to the lowest common denominator and keep the races they assimilate down.


Where there are no distinctions, there will be perfections.

We are the LiBorg. You will be made perfect. You will be the same as everyone else. Soon you will drink Soy Lattes, eat Vegan foods, and go Gluten Free like everyone else.

Resistance is futile. We are the LiBorg.

Darilian
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utoption2 wrote:
I am, Drew, but the Tea-Baggers sacrificed the Republicans at the altar for nothing. And all they had to do was wait a week or two and watch Obamacare crash and burn on its own. Instead they made fools of themselves and made the Bamster look like he actually had a pair.

True dat. The front page news was all about Tea Party foolishness and the government shutdown, whereas if they'd bided their time it would have been about the Obamacare website melting down. Now any legit complaints they have about the implementation of Obamacare look like sour grapes.
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jeremycobert wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
How about instead of just being a giant douchebag about the story, mix your douchebaginess in with a little information and perhaps some humor.


oh yeah, that makes sense. I wont, but that makes sense. hey look, you've managed to win friends and influence people, good job !


So... an open admission that you aren't here to add content or personality.... just add background noise and be generally douchetacular?
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I remember the media was pretty clear at the time that the forced destruction of the used cars was a bad thing. NPR talked about how ruining the engines hurt secondary markets and that any economical benefits would be temporary. There was an interesting story where they had a mechanic euthanize an engine and talked about how many components were wasted.
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hibikir wrote:
The worst part about threads against fiscal stimulus is that the conservative POV is correct for the wrong reasons.

Temporary stimulus, regardless of whether it's monetary or fiscal, goes nowhere, because at most all it does is move purchases a little bit. People don't make significant changes to their expenses because of small, one time cash influxes.


I agreee, but I think it goes even further than that. I think the general failure of any stimulus is more fundamental.

An economy -- any economy -- works because of maximizing the producer and consumer surpluses. The key point is that both sides in any transaction get more out of the transaction than they put in. A superficial look at Cash for Clunkers makes it look like a dream, that is true. Not only do both sides get more out the exchange than they provided, but the stimulus seems actually to add to the net surplus. The problem, of course, is that there is now a third party to the transaction (those who fund the stimulus itself (i.e. us)) and they get nothing for their contribution.
 
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RSPs top notch reporting on Cash for Clunkers is quite within the required guidelines of non-accuracy.
 
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Altair IV wrote:
RSPs top notch reporting on Cash for Clunkers is quite within the required guidelines of non-accuracy.


this is exactly why I post a story without my opinion, instead I prefer to link to a well known left leaning website's story and then goof on you screwballs.

no matter what you post here and no matter how much proof of a failed leftist policy or idea, the author of said post who points it out will always be "wrong".



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