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Subject: Need some clarifications rss

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John Saturn
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Hello I need some clarifications from the rule book:

1. Claiming card: I guess that influence cube in Cities only count for claiming city cards. Only agent's can count towards game cards and city cards.

2. Known to the Authorities: as far as I understand in case none of the players have revealed their identity, if any of the tracks (War or Revolution) reaches 2 VPs, all player are automatically known to the authorities becasue they all have a potential for the VP right?

3. I need some clarification on the assassination and counter double agent. We read on pg 10 of the printed rule book:
'Another player can interrupt and cause the assassination to fail if they reveal a Double-agent counter for any agents in the city that belongs to the active player'

Later on the example where the active player uses Kravchinksy agent card to attempt an assassination we have:
'No other player reveals Kravchinksy to be a double-agent, so the assassination succeeds'

But in fact this sentence in the example does not correspond to the above part of a general rule. So I see 3 options here:
a. Any double agent revealed in any city on the board (not necessary the one in which the assassination takes place) that has the active player control disc, can stop the assassination.
b. Any double agent revealed but only in the city in which the assassination takes place, can stop the assassination.
c. Only revealed the double-agent token of the exact same agent that is performing the assassination can stop the attempt (that however is unclear about using 'Hired Assassin' or the card form initial set.

4. Again the double agent: I have read somewhere on the forum that double agents can be used to disturb other actions than assassination - is that a left over from the PnP rulebook? I only saw the double agents interrupt ability by the assassination paragraph and I haven't read the PnP version.
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Christoph M.
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1, 2: correct
3: the assassination fails if
* the double agent was the one carrying out the assassination (i.e. his card was used)
* the double agent was the one carrying out the assassination (i.e. an "Hired assassin" card is used, but the double agent is the only agent in the city)
* without the double agent there are not enough bombs left
Revealing a double agent doesn't make an assassination atempt to fail per se
4) the same is true for hiding a GOO or assassinating another agent
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Sebastian Grab
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1. Yes, cubes in cities only count towards claiming cities. Agents count towards both cities and cards.

2. You are correct, 2 points on any of the tracks puts all players in known to authorities position.

3. B is correct I guess. Think of it like this - 3 agents make up a plan to assasinate someone, and one of them, let's say the guy that was supposed to take out the bodyguards, do not show up at a key moment as he was double agent. Assasination failes. So the agent has to be in the city (taking part in action) but do not have to be the guy that pulls the trigger.

4. They can only stop assasinations. The first time we played the game we made the same mistake (used them to stop all actions of the card, for eksample action of Irane Adler) but there's nothing in the manual about it, so they can only be takan during your turn or to stop assasination.
 
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serdel_pl wrote:
Hello I need some clarifications from the rule book:

1. Claiming card: I guess that influence cube in Cities only count for claiming city cards. Only agent's can count towards game cards and city cards.


That's how I read the last paragraph on page 5 of the rules.
I do, however, have another question on this section which I will defer to the end.

Quote:
2. Known to the Authorities: as far as I understand in case none of the players have revealed their identity, if any of the tracks (War or Revolution) reaches 2 VPs, all player are automatically known to the authorities becasue they all have a potential for the VP right?


That's what the paragraph on the subject on page 11 appears to say quite explicitly.

Quote:
3. I need some clarification on the assassination and counter double agent. We read on pg 10 of the printed rule book:
'Another player can interrupt and cause the assassination to fail if they reveal a Double-agent counter for any agents in the city that belongs to the active player'

Later on the example where the active player uses Kravchinksy agent card to attempt an assassination we have:
'No other player reveals Kravchinksy to be a double-agent, so the assassination succeeds'

But in fact this sentence in the example does not correspond to the above part of a general rule. So I see 3 options here:
a. Any double agent revealed in any city on the board (not necessary the one in which the assassination takes place) that has the active player control disc, can stop the assassination.
b. Any double agent revealed but only in the city in which the assassination takes place, can stop the assassination.
c. Only revealed the double-agent token of the exact same agent that is performing the assassination can stop the attempt (that however is unclear about using 'Hired Assassin' or the card form initial set.


The rules appear to indicate (b) is the case even though I would have expected (c).

Quote:
4. Again the double agent: I have read somewhere on the forum that double agents can be used to disturb other actions than assassination - is that a left over from the PnP rulebook? I only saw the double agents interrupt ability by the assassination paragraph and I haven't read the PnP version.


I don't see any other "interrupt" usage in the rules, but the way it is worded I think the "save royalty" action can also be countered in this way.

On to my Question.
"Claim One Card"
The beginning of the description implies that you can claim on equality (if the agent tie-breaker does not apply); but the tenor of the rest of that section seems to imply that you need more influence than anyone else (again, subject to tie-breaker). Clarification on this would be desirable.

(I notice the absence of two of Martin's regular proof-readers from the credits at the end – could what we see be symptoms of this?)
 
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Sebastian Grab
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Chris Coyote wrote:
3: the assassination fails if
* the double agent was the one carrying out the assassination (i.e. his card was used)
* without the double agent there are not enough bombs left
Revealing a double agent doesn't make an assassination atempt to fail per se


Where have you found this information? The only thing I can find in the manual is the one rule that was quoted in the first post:

'Another player can interrupt and cause the assassination to fail if they reveal a Double-agent counter for any agents in the city that belongs to the active player'

This seems to say that reveling a double agent DOES make an assasination atempt feil per se, and it does not require to be the one that was used as a card. I can't find anything about not having enought bombs... Am I missing something here?
 
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Difference between close reading and literal interpretation and what I would call "common sense". Always a problem when it comes to understanding rules.

I would also say that Christoph is correct in his explanation. An attempt also fails if it does not have enough bombs, which is implicit. You would not start an assassination if you didn't have enough bombs.
Ergo - if you had enough bombs, and now due to a double agent do not, you cannot successfully perform the assassination attempt. Which means it fails.

The whole assassination/hide royalty thing is quite ambiguously worded in total, and, what's more, the information is sprikled throughout the rulebook. Not very helpful when one tries to understand it all...
 
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John Saturn
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Yes I also try to find as much common sense in the rules when I find any doubts. So I have no doubts that the required amount of bombs is needed for a successful assassination, therefore without them the attempt fails.

However the problem is that I can came up with perfectly sensible explanation to all option in my 3rd question:

a) the agent(s) organizing the assassination find out about a traitor in another city so that brings obvious trust issues and they call off the assassination attempt

b) a double agent is reviled in the group which was caring out the assassination, so he obviously can stop them in any ways.

c) is in fact self explanatory. But than what if you are using 'Hired assassin'?

I think we could really use a more 'official' explanation to this.
 
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Dumon wrote:
Difference between close reading and literal interpretation and what I would call "common sense". Always a problem when it comes to understanding rules.

I would also say that Christoph is correct in his explanation. An attempt also fails if it does not have enough bombs, which is implicit. You would not start an assassination if you didn't have enough bombs.
Ergo - if you had enough bombs, and now due to a double agent do not, you cannot successfully perform the assassination attempt. Which means it fails.

The whole assassination/hide royalty thing is quite ambiguously worded in total, and, what's more, the information is sprikled throughout the rulebook. Not very helpful when one tries to understand it all...


I have to disagree. There's a big differance between stopping the assasination and not hoving enought bombs. In the second case you could get more agents in the city/overpay with cards that have more bombs than required on them (Infernam machine) and make sure your assasination goes as planed even though a double agent was involved.

So I want to assasinate an agent using one agent (one bomb) and I am in Rome. I have only infernal machine, so I use it (3 more bombs). The agent is reveld to be double agent, and the assasination is still a success bacause I have enought bombs with the Infernal machine (3, 2 is required)? According to you this is a valid play, assasinating without an agent. Doesn't seem right to me.
 
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Christoph M.
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Valarus wrote:
So I want to assasinate an agent using one agent (one bomb) and I am in Rome. I have only infernal machine, so I use it (3 more bombs). The agent is reveld to be double agent, and the assasination is still a success bacause I have enought bombs with the Infernal machine (3, 2 is required)? According to you this is a valid play, assasinating without an agent. Doesn't seem right to me.


Right. I forgot about the case where an hired assassin is used, but the double agent is the only agent. I added it in italics in my previous post.

Obviously the rules aren't very clear (which is true not only for assassination). An definite answer could only come by Martin Wallace himself.

The way I understand the meaning of the rules is as follows:

To do an assassination, you have to fulfil the following criteria:
1) have enough bombs in the city
2) have an assassination card
3) have an agent in the city
3a) if (2) it's an "hired assassin", the agent himself doesn't matter
3b) if (2) it's an agent card, you need to have exactly this agent in the city

Using a double agent, an assassination could fail because
1) not enough bombs
3a) no agent left, i.e. the double agent was the only agent
3b) the agent whose card is used is the double agent
 
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Chris Coyote wrote:
Using a double agent, an assassination could fail because
1) not enough bombs
3a) no agent left, i.e. the double agent was the only agent
3b) the agent whose card is used is the double agent


The way I read, it implies that if an other player thwarts the assassination by playing a double agent counter but the player conducting the assassination still has enough bombs in the city of question to conduct the assassination, he succeeds, correct?
 
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Christoph M.
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grouchysmurf wrote:
Chris Coyote wrote:
Using a double agent, an assassination could fail because
1) not enough bombs
3a) no agent left, i.e. the double agent was the only agent
3b) the agent whose card is used is the double agent


The way I read, it implies that if an other player thwarts the assassination by playing a double agent counter but the player conducting the assassination still has enough bombs in the city of question to conduct the assassination, he succeeds, correct?


if there's still another agent left and if the double agent is not the one whose card was used - yes.
 
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Chris Coyote wrote:
if there's still another agent left and if the double agent is not the ones whose card was used - yes.


Contrary to my intuition and the way we played it -- is this an official interpretation of the rules?
 
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Christoph M.
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Chris Coyote wrote:
Obviously the rules aren't very clear (which is true not only for assassination). An definite answer could only come by Martin Wallace himself.



imho: double agents are already very strong and very luck-dependent. It is easily possible that one player can employ 2 or 3 double agents in one game, and another player none.
Therefore, failing an assassination onyl because a double agent was used (but all assassination conditions are still fulfilled) is much to strong imho.
The same goes for one-use cards; since they where not really "used", I wouldn' trash them.

But again - see me quoting myself above. I hope Mr. Wallace will clear things up soon.
Sad enough that this hasn't already been cleared in the rules, since those problems where already present in the first pnp rules draft.
 
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No, it's not the official interpretation, nothing about that in the manual, as I said.

I have a big problem with the assasinations being dependent on bomb points after double-agents are being reveld. Let's give another example - I have 5 agents in Rome, each one has a bomb. I make an agent assasination. Now, according to manual, reviling any one of those as double-agent stops the assasination. Accoring to the bomb point theory, reveling even 3 of them as double-agents DOES NOT stop the assasination. That's a huge differance, and one that's seem to be going against the manual.
 
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Valarus, I didn't include this, because I thought it was implied.
So I'll write what I mean a bit more clearly (I hope):

1.
An agent capable of doing so wants do perform an assassination. The card is played, and there are enough bombs for the attempt to succeed.
This attempt can be thwarted by either
a) revealing the agent PERFORMING the assassination to be a double agent, or by
b) revealing another agent to be a double agent, resulting in the PERFORMING agent not having enough bombs afterwards to go through with it.

2.
Any agent, with the help of a hired assassin, wants to retire some royalty. The card is played, and there are enough bombs for the attempt to succeed. This attempt can be thwarted by revealing any agent to be a double agent, resulting
a) in there not being enough bombs afterwards to perform the assassination, or
b) in there not being an agent left to help the hired assassin perform the assasination.

I know that rules here are more implicit than explicit, but this is what I would take as the most probable variant, as it is the one most logical (at least to me), theme-wise...

Oh, and of course (my take) an assassination attempt has to basically be done, meaning that you cannot play a card to up the bomb count after a reveal leaves you one or more bombs short...


BTW:
The most likely way to get an answer is to write to MW directly, as he seems to be present in these fora only sporadically. But then, one could (of course) doubt any answer one user might claim coming directly from MW himself...
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Dumon wrote:
Valarus, I didn't include this, because I thought it was implied.
So I'll write what I mean a bit more clearly (I hope):

1.
An agent capable of doing so wants do perform an assassination. The card is played, and there are enough bombs for the attempt to succeed.
This attempt can be thwarted by either
a) revealing the agent PERFORMING the assassination to be a double agent, or by
b) revealing another agent to be a double agent, resulting in the PERFORMING agent not having enough bombs afterwards to go through with it.

2.
Any agent, with the help of a hired assassin, wants to retire some royalty. The card is played, and there are enough bombs for the attempt to succeed. This attempt can be thwarted by revealing any agent to be a double agent, resulting
a) in there not being enough bombs afterwards to perform the assassination, or
b) in there not being an agent left to help the hired assassin perform the assasination.

I know that rules here are more implicit than explicit, but this is what I would take as the most probable variant, as it is the one most logical (at least to me), theme-wise...

Oh, and of course (my take) an assassination attempt has to basically be done, meaning that you cannot play a card to up the bomb count after a reveal leaves you one or more bombs short...


BTW:
The most likely way to get an answer is to write to MW directly, as he seems to be present in these fora only sporadically. But then, one could (of course) doubt any answer one user might claim coming directly from MW himself...


Again, it's not implied. I will try to explain my point more clearly as well.

I see assasinations working like this.

I play the assasination card (agent, hired assasin, main agent action) and all the cards with bombs. The game checks if I have enought of them, if so - the action takes place. Now players can reveal double agents. If any of them is revealed, assasination failes.

So - Play action - check bombs - reveal double agents - fail or success.

You guys say that:
play the card - check bombs - reveal agents - check bombs again - ??? - fail or success.

I can't understand why is the second bomb check added. To me it only adds to the confusion. The questions that I have:

1. Can we reveal more double agents after the second bomb check? If yes, do you repeat this process? If not, why?

2. Do I have to point out which agents take part in the assasination? Let's use the example from before. I have 5 agents in Rome, need 2 bomb points. So do I have to say which agent is the one adding the bomb? If so, can I point to another one after the first one is reveled as double-agent? It would seem so, but than we enter a guessing minigame - I have to guess which one of them is not a double agent. This seems reallt strange to me...

As to discarding cards/removing hired assasin - in my opinion, the card was played, even if the assasination is stopped. Hired assasin is removed from the game in all cases, used cards go to discard.

Theme wise, I think the assasination is a delicate thing that has to be kept in secret. So if one of the agents betrey and goes to the police, the whole thing fails, we can't just sand another guy to replace him as the whole plan can be forgotten, it won't work. That's why one double agent can stop the whole thing, even though there's more agents to take part. The more agents involved, the more chances that one of them will betray. The same with the assasin - if the double-agent goes to the police, the hired guy my be killed or flee, but he won't help you again - remove from the game.

I do agree this is not as clear as it should be and we need clarification from Martin, but I hope that I maneged to point out that "the checking for bombs theory" only makes thing way more complicated then they are in the manual.
 
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Christoph M.
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Valarus wrote:
So - Play action - check bombs - reveal double agents - fail or success.

You guys say that:
play the card - check bombs - reveal agents - check bombs again - ??? - fail or success.


This kind of strict order is your own interpretation. The rules never mentioned that you have to check one thing or another first, or when to reveal a double agent. You could even play one of your three bomb cards from hand and exactly that moment is chosen to reveal a double agent before showing the other (needed) bomb cards. Or you call an assassination via hired assassin, but haven't named the agent or the GOO, and the double agent counter is already revealed.
 
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Chris Coyote wrote:
Valarus wrote:
So - Play action - check bombs - reveal double agents - fail or success.

You guys say that:
play the card - check bombs - reveal agents - check bombs again - ??? - fail or success.


This kind of strict order is your own interpretation. The rules never mentioned that you have to check one thing or another first, or when to reveal a double agent. You could even play one of your three bomb cards from hand and exactly that moment is chosen to reveal a double agent before showing the other (needed) bomb cards. Or you call an assassination via hired assassin, but haven't named the agent or the GOO, and the double agent counter is already revealed.


I based this on the example in rules, page 11. Play card, match the bombs, no one revels agents... You can check it yourself. I'm not saying this is 100 % right, but as we all agree, we need a clarification on this, so I'm just point out what the manual is saying.
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Martin Wallace
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1. Influence cubes in a city box only count towards claiming the related City card. Influence cubes on a game card only count towards claiming that card. The influence related to an agent count towards claiming both.

2. Yes, if all players have the potential to have VPs then all are known to the authorities.

3. An assassination can only be thwarted by a double-agent if that double-agent is in the city where the assassination is being carried out. It is not necessary that the double-agent is actively involved in the assassination (he or she would have knowledge of the assassination plans even if they were not taking part in the attempt).

Hope that helps.

Martin

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Thank you so much for this clarifying answer, Martin.
And we (Christoph and myself) were wrong. So apologies for not believing in the easier and (now proven to be) correct application of the rules...

Not sure if I like it, but then, I know next to nothing about the game, so far. Several games in, I probably start thinking about opinions regarding certain rules...
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John Saturn
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Big thanks for the clarification Martin. The wording in the rulebook about assassination does not state the solution directly so I think a clarification would be needed in some upcoming FAQ. By the way - so far I am very happy that I've bough the copy, so another big thanks for creating this project :>
 
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Thanks.
That still leaves the question what happens to one-time-cards in this case. Do they still count as used, i.e. are trashed?
 
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As per MW's answer in the other thread, at least Hired Assassin cards are removed from the game (count as used up), whether the attempt was thrwarted or not.
That, of course, would imply that any card used in such an attempt would also be removed. But of course this is not a complete anwer, and the ambiguity is still unclear...
 
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Christoph M.
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Thanks.
I thought I subscribed to the other thread - seems like I didn't
 
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Dumon wrote:
As per MW's answer in the other thread, at least Hired Assassin cards are removed from the game (count as used up), whether the attempt was thrwarted or not.
That, of course, would imply that any card used in such an attempt would also be removed. But of course this is not a complete anwer, and the ambiguity is still unclear...


He clarified in other threads that you treat all cards as normal, so if a card would normally be discarded after a successful attempt, you do so after an unsuccessful attempt also. Same with cards that are to be removed.
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