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Modern Naval Battles: Global Warfare» Forums » Rules

Subject: Submarines rss

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Scott Key
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Sorry to do this but...
Can you attack Subs with things other than cards with the ASW ability?
I have been playing not.... But the rules are unclear (to me)
 
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Jim S.
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Please see rule section 3 Create Fleets (page 2), Fleet Formation, end of paragraph 3: "Submarines can only be attacked by Torpedo or ASW attacks." Also see Action Cards (page 7), Bomber Strike: "... you cannot target submarines."
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Scott Key
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There it is....
Thanks for the help. Luckily I was playing it right...
 
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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Note also what cards you can use to "protect" submarines.

ie:
Intel (only against action card attacks (air support), not against intrinsic ship or submarine ASW.)
and
Near Miss - any attack

Of course you get the submarines active/passive dfefence

Note:
You cannot use air support to attempt to stop air support ASW attacks


All of this makes submarines (especially the very expensive ones) a risky proposition...
and means that players rarely use submarines (except the cheap 3/4 VP ones) in most of our games with Rules As Written (RAW) - a house rule that works for us is - destroyed submarines do not add their VP to determine victory. This means that they do still eat up a lot of VP to buy.. but don't give the enemy an easy win.

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Scott Key
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I'm soloing through a campaign and I got the Submarine Strikes mission for the Russians. It was a pretty interesting little fight. Multiple Subs on both sides, the Russians also had a little ASW taskforce
 
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Scott Key
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Quote:
Please see rule section 3 Create Fleets (page 2), Fleet Formation, end of paragraph 3: "Submarines can only be attacked by Torpedo or ASW attacks."


Either I'm just missing it or this isn't in my Rulebook (or the one online at DVG). It should be, I know. I believe I do have the first DVG printing. I don't know if this could have been added in the second printing?

The third paragraph in my Rulebook just talks about sub placement and Passive/Active orientation
 
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Jim S.
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There was a revised printing of the rulebook; I have scanned mine to a PDF. Not sure if I can post it here at BGG, but if you send me an email address, I'll forward a copy to you.
 
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Scott Key
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Thank you,
Email sent
 
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Przemysław Mantay
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Can I also have the copy of "revised" rules?
AFAIK neither the on-line rules nor printed (those included in my copy of the game)contain such sentence.

BTW:
@David in Sydney:
where is the rule stating that:
Quote:
You cannot use air support to attempt to stop air support ASW attacks

???

It seems reasonable, but... IMHO it's quite odd.
In fact the Air Support card IMHO imagine the "land-based" ASW patrols (or long-range helo missions) whih can be intercepted via own "land-based air patrols" etc.

Anyway, I'm thinking on some rules similar to those in Cold War Naval Battles, that could make a simulation to "fighter combat" in such case (or even in any case of Air Strike/Bomber strike etc.).

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Scott Key
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I just got Modern Naval Battles III yesterday. Thinking of trying to integrate several ideas from that into MNB:GW.
I'll try to get Dan to post the current version of the rules on his site. Meanwhile geek mail me yr email address.
 
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Przemysław Mantay
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Scott Pasha wrote:
I just got Modern Naval Battles III yesterday. Thinking of trying to integrate several ideas from that into MNB:GW.
I'll try to get Dan to post the current version of the rules on his site. Meanwhile geek mail me yr email address.


I'm trying too... but using the Cold War Naval Battles rules.
In fact my own main idea is to introduce new cards (both Action and Strategy for campaign game) and I also think that in order to keep current probability of picking cards, after implememnting my ideas a player will need two sets of basic game.
We'll see...
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Scott Key
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I'm not going to add any action cards to the deck. I'm purchasing them as Strategy Cards except for the Bad Luck cards which I'm setting aside as a separate deck. I will either require a roll during the hand draw at the end of each player's phase or link them to another card in the deck ( for example: if you draw a Superior a Tactics card you also draw a Bad Luck card). I like the latter idea more but since I play the game Solitaire I'll probably using the dice rolling method.
The Air combat rules are still an unknown....

I'd like to see DVG come out with another expansion that has a. Very current ships for the US and Russian Fleets and b. an Events deck for use in the campaign game. This would be like the events deck in the Air Leader games or the Shipyard Deck in Iron and Oak.
 
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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I too would like to see another MNB expansion..
a few more ships for existing fleets (mainly assault ships)
some more fleets (Spain, Chile, Brazil, Thailand, Australia etc)
some more tactical cards for the campaign
some more action cards for the standard game
some more mission cards for the campaign
an official errata...

To allow for amphibious operations in standard and campaign games and more!!!

I suppose it all depends on how well the game is selling currently...
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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Page 7 of the rules:
"Air Defense - Play the card when you
are under attack by one of the noted
attack types during the Defense step.
Declare the single attack you want to stop. If you roll the
indicated number or higher, you stop the attack."

note that the attack types shown are Cruise Missile or Air Strike
on some action cards it is Surface To Surface Missile,Cruise Missile or Air Strike

Note - the only card that shows a red bracket around an ASW symbol is the Near Miss action card.

Thus the only submarine defence against attack in the baseic game is:
Active/Passive evade (as per submarine card)
Near Miss (action card)
and
Intel (action card - but only work against another action card)


HOWEVER....
In the campaign rules is:
"RULE CLARIFICATIONS
If an Action card has more than 1 Gun or Missile Launcher
symbol, you can use Defense cards and Ship Defenses
against any of the symbols listed. The actual Attack Symbol
types used to play the card are not important."

Note - this doesn't apply to ASW attack symbols on air support action cards - however... in your own games if you want to extend the above to allow Air Defence to apply to any action card that has Air Strike.. then it would also work against the Air Support cards that have ASW symbols on them. (ie all air support cards).
But this can lead to madness... I am using my Air Defence from a ship in my row three to attempt to stop your ASW Air support that is attacking a submarine that just torpedoed a ship in your row three.... hard top justify that for SAM.. but also reasonable to justify it for your own Air Support which might be interceptinghis air support in transit....


Darth Stalin wrote:
Can I also have the copy of "revised" rules?
AFAIK neither the on-line rules nor printed (those included in my copy of the game)contain such sentence.

BTW:
@David in Sydney:
where is the rule stating that:
Quote:
You cannot use air support to attempt to stop air support ASW attacks

???

It seems reasonable, but... IMHO it's quite odd.
In fact the Air Support card IMHO imagine the "land-based" ASW patrols (or long-range helo missions) whih can be intercepted via own "land-based air patrols" etc.

Anyway, I'm thinking on some rules similar to those in Cold War Naval Battles, that could make a simulation to "fighter combat" in such case (or even in any case of Air Strike/Bomber strike etc.).

 
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Scott Key
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Chile would be cool. Indonesia as a foil for India.

I'm for all those things you listed but FIRST Modern Land Battles: Target Acquired!
 
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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I agree MLB first..

I did some playtesting late last year... need to do some more soon...

Indonesian navy would be fun too..

So much of the real world gets in the way of gaming...



Scott Pasha wrote:
Chile would be cool. Indonesia as a foil for India.

I'm for all those things you listed but FIRST Modern Land Battles: Target Acquired!
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Przemysław Mantay
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davidinsydney2 wrote:

HOWEVER....
In the campaign rules is:
"RULE CLARIFICATIONS
If an Action card has more than 1 Gun or Missile Launcher
symbol, you can use Defense cards and Ship Defenses
against any of the symbols listed. The actual Attack Symbol
types used to play the card are not important."

Note - this doesn't apply to ASW attack symbols on air support action cards - however... in your own games if you want to extend the above to allow Air Defence to apply to any action card that has Air Strike.. then it would also work against the Air Support cards that have ASW symbols on them. (ie all air support cards).
But this can lead to madness... I am using my Air Defence from a ship in my row three to attempt to stop your ASW Air support that is attacking a submarine that just torpedoed a ship in your row three.... hard top justify that for SAM.. but also reasonable to justify it for your own Air Support which might be interceptinghis air support in transit....

Yep, I do understand - but I'm gonna limit that ability ONLY to Air Support card => these simulate:
a) long range ASW patrols, like P3C Orion or Il-38 May/Tu-142 Bear-F
and
b) long range Combat Air Patrol/Intercept mission.
Thus Air Support "Air defense" card used to intercept Air Support "ASW" card would simulate the situation, that the defending player knows the area where operates his own Submarine and sends there his fighter patrols to hunt down enemy ASW planes trying to track down the submarine.
For example, Soviet Bears patrolling Norwegian Sea (operating from Kandalaksha) could be intercepted by US F-15 Eagles flying from Keflavik... unless being escorted by MiG-31 from Monchegorsk etc.
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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But why can't the F-14's flying CAP on the fleet protect the Orion hunting the Kilo that just tried to torpedo a ship 1000km from the base of the Fulcrums you are sending to protect the Kilo from ASW assets that you are not even sure are there...

did I mention madness.... zombie

Having said all that - It would increase the survivability of submarines if Air Support Cards can be used to counter Air-Support action card ASW attacks and I agree that as a house rule it has great merit.

Darth Stalin wrote:
davidinsydney2 wrote:

HOWEVER....
In the campaign rules is:
"RULE CLARIFICATIONS
If an Action card has more than 1 Gun or Missile Launcher
symbol, you can use Defense cards and Ship Defenses
against any of the symbols listed. The actual Attack Symbol
types used to play the card are not important."

Note - this doesn't apply to ASW attack symbols on air support action cards - however... in your own games if you want to extend the above to allow Air Defence to apply to any action card that has Air Strike.. then it would also work against the Air Support cards that have ASW symbols on them. (ie all air support cards).
But this can lead to madness... I am using my Air Defence from a ship in my row three to attempt to stop your ASW Air support that is attacking a submarine that just torpedoed a ship in your row three.... hard top justify that for SAM.. but also reasonable to justify it for your own Air Support which might be interceptinghis air support in transit....

Yep, I do understand - but I'm gonna limit that ability ONLY to Air Support card => these simulate:
a) long range ASW patrols, like P3C Orion or Il-38 May/Tu-142 Bear-F
and
b) long range Combat Air Patrol/Intercept mission.
Thus Air Support "Air defense" card used to intercept Air Support "ASW" card would simulate the situation, that the defending player knows the area where operates his own Submarine and sends there his fighter patrols to hunt down enemy ASW planes trying to track down the submarine.
For example, Soviet Bears patrolling Norwegian Sea (operating from Kandalaksha) could be intercepted by US F-15 Eagles flying from Keflavik... unless being escorted by MiG-31 from Monchegorsk etc.
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Przemysław Mantay
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Of course I do agree that it could lead to madness... but:
1. sometimes there are submarines really worth such protection (like Los Angeles, Trafalgar or Oscar...)
2. Usually the player will have much more assets to protect by his Air Support cards than just submarines...

BTW: remember Tom Clancy's (R.I.P.) "Red Storm rising"? The NATO submarines face the Soviet "bastion" concept of protecting SSBNs... which looked somehow like that. And the submarine strike of Los Angeleses and Trafalgars against Soviet bomber airfields, after that being hunter down by massed Soviet ASW force.
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David in Sydney (now in Coffs)
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I've just re-read RSR last month and it is a great book and is how I want to visualise my games of MNB....
and MLB (Modern Land Battles) when it comes out and... whistle
then perhaps MAB (Modern Air Battles)..
and then... the world!!!! robot

On Clancy - his early works I realy enjoyed
his later works are :snore or yuk
his SSN book was just so bad and partisan that it made me angry

So in summary - I do like your suggestion and will give it a try in the form..
Air Support Action Cards can be played to attempt to stop Air Support Action Cards
Using the Air Defence factor to resolve...
 
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Przemysław Mantay
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davidinsydney2 wrote:
I've just re-read RSR last month and it is a great book and is how I want to visualise my games of MNB....
and MLB (Modern Land Battles) when it comes out and... whistle
then perhaps MAB (Modern Air Battles)..
and then... the world!!!! robot

Yes, I do agree; nevertheless Clancy has made lots of mistakes, mostly due to his (and his co-writer's Larry Bond) limited knowledge on Soviet weapons and doctrine. But for read it is a great book.
Similar was "The hunt for Red October" - some ideas are veeery naive (like the one of making a deception that the whole affair was a Polish "sabotage" made by Polish intelligence and engineers etc. working in Soviet shipyards - the probem is, that Polish personel never worked in Soviet shipyards, especially the military ones. We have built lots of warships and civilian vessels for Soviet Union - as a compensation for oil and gas distributed via "Friendship" pipeline system, but our personel was not allowed to work in Soviet military shipyards).

Quote:
On Clancy - his early works I realy enjoyed
his later works are :snore or yuk
his SSN book was just so bad and partisan that it made me angry

I do agree again... hist last boks were almost non-readable for me, starting from "The red rabbit" - the whole idea was so unprobable, that it could not happen "then and there".

Quote:
So in summary - I do like your suggestion and will give it a try in the form..
Air Support Action Cards can be played to attempt to stop Air Support Action Cards
Using the Air Defence factor to resolve...

I'll do the same and see, how that works. I suppose there should not be many problems, as I do not expect massive use of these cards in that manner.
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