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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: "Click to draw" as part of card cost? rss

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Ian Toltz
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Vox_Dargard wrote:
Does it bother anyone else immensely that "click to draw" keeps being brought up as part of the cost of a card? It bothers me for a number of reasons.


Not as much as it bothers me that this thread keeps being brought up.
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João Almeida
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Oh god, this again? Dude, there is something in financial analysis called "opportunity cost". Drawing a card has the opportunity cost of "doing whatever else you can do with a click", that includes taking 1 credit from the bank, and - and this is a VERY IMPORTANT DETAIL - depending on how you made your math model and depending on the goal of your financial analysis, you have to count the cost of drawing a card.

That does not mean that you should always count the click to draw. But suggesting that you should never count it is, at least, an ignorant idea.
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beepers wrote:
"Click to draw" is a dead, dead concept. One could argue that it barely existed in the age of Core, with Diesel, Wyldside and Initial Draw being the only methods of modifying the "efficiency" of drawing, but now more than ever, with Quality Time, Andromeda, Exile and particularly Professional Contacts, the "efficiency" of acquiring cards depends on the context its in, i.e., the deck.


That doesn't make it a dead concept. It just means that those cards (and others like them) are more effecient at draw than the standard action. The Oppertunity cost is less for those types of cards.

It in no way makes the standarization and attempt to quantify how good a card is by the click to draw concept and click for 1 credit actions invalidated. those are still valid baseline comparisons of costs and resources. It just means that they are the -baseline- and the newer cards are, predictably, better at it than the baseline.
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Sebastian Barth
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Maybe I can leave this here early enough to stop the thread ;)


work compression
like net damage, False Lead, etc.
also going into "draw debt"
tactical +-------------+ >--------------------------------------------> +-------------+ strategical
short term |click to draw| |click to draw| long term
local | doesn't | | does | global
turn by turn | count | | count | deckbuilding
point of view +-------------+ {--------------------------------------------{ +-------------+ point of view
work decompression
like Kati Jones, Personal Workshop, etc.
also making a "draw deposit"



excuse the stupid Ascii arrows please...
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- Saturnine -
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To me, evaluating the click to draw is largely a fruitless endeavor. When you draw a card, you've already determined that spending the click to draw is more valuable to you than taking a credit. The "correct" way to spend your clicks shifts all the time, that's why the click to draw is hard to evaluate even during deckbuilding.
I can see why people do it, but they do it almost exclusively in the context of economy cards. Nobody looks at Inside Job and goes "well, it costs me a click to draw -- I could have made a run with the click instead." When you evaluate an economy card, you need to look at what it offers you once you have it. You've already decided that you're going to put economy cards in your deck. Nobody thinks "should I put in economy cards or click to gain credits instead?" So you need to compare economy cards directly, and you need to draw all of them. Even averaging the net credit gain over the total click cost isn't all that useful, because a Daily Casts impacts tempo very differently than a Sure Gamble or an Armitage Codebusting, and you don't win the game by getting credits (though it can help), but by making good use of your clicks.

That's my 2 credits.
 
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Calvin Moore
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This article and its follow up put the issue to bed for me.
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João Almeida
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beepers wrote:
"Click to draw" is a dead, dead concept.


No, it isn't. Cards like Andromeda and Quality Time makes it more hard to calculate the opportunity cost, but it is not impossible.

Saturnine wrote:
The "correct" way to spend your clicks shifts all the time...


That's why it depends on the model.

The problem is that you guys want some sort of general analysis that says that "card A is better than card B" in general. There's no such thing. You can analyse card through hundreds of different criterias.
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- Saturnine -
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Hraklea wrote:
The problem is that you guys want some sort of general analysis that says that "card A is better than card B" in general.


That's exactly the problem with click to draw. It is usually only used by people trying to determine whether card A is better than card B, without context. What cards really do is change the value of your draw clicks (in context of the game state), not the other way around.
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Doug Law
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While I'm actually pretty tired of these threads I do have an opinion, so I will post it.cool

People try to evaluate cards in a vacuum, without any game state context at all. It's a fun excercise, but largely meaningless. When you look at cards like that the click to draw is relevant.

However cards are not only not played in a vacuum, they aren't even aggregated that way, i.e. You build your deck to certain strengths and playstyles. One doesn't say that Underworld Contacts is infinitely better than Daily casts because, while both are clickless credits, Underworld Contacts will never run out. You put one, or both, or neither in your deck because of what else is in your deck and what you expect to be facing (the meta).

Since you must draw any card to play it, does the draw click count? I think usually no, except in situations where the corp forces it to count (the famous Work Compression). The opportunity cost of the card is really missing the chance to play a different card not the click for a credit, since the de facto activity of the game is drawing and playing cards.

Should you count the click to draw a card when you are building your deck. I don't think so. Whatever draw scheme you build into the deck, be it Procon, QT, Diesel, Wyldside, Mr. Li, or what have you, will apply equally to every card in your deck, except the draw card itself. So every card gets the same ratio of discount applied equally, essentially reducing to irrelevance.

So the answer is ultimately fairly obvious:

Who gives a 5#!t?
 
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João Almeida
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Saturnine wrote:
That's exactly the problem with click to draw. It is usually only used by people...


So that's the problem with people.

There's nothing wrong with using the click to draw, what's wrong is the huge amount of people who never touched a math book in their lives trying to make deep financial analysis only using addition and subtraction...
 
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Evan
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beepers wrote:
Also, the fact that every single card has the same draw cost in a given deck makes "click for draw" useless to look at anyways. Pondering the usefulness of a card and factoring in the "click to draw" is like going to a Queen Size Bed Shop and saying you won't buy the bed because of the space it takes up. They're all the same size yo!


Yeah, I don't get why people keep acting like Easy Mark and Kati Jones aren't basically the same card... whistle

not that this point hasn't also been discussed ad nauseam
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