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Subject: Moving outbid workers rss

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rok velikonja
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When moving outbid workers the rules state that "a player may supplement these workers with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screen".

The question is: Can I combine all the losing workers from multiple outbid tiles, but of the same color, with workers from behind the screen, to place them on new bid, or to activate a tile?

Thanks
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Derry Salewski
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Yes.
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Mark Voisin
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it also states that moving outbid workers that they can be put into the bag as an exchange......is the exchange 1 for 1 or if you have multiple workers that were grouped together do you get all of them replaced or do you still only get one worker from the bag?
 
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Mike Spartz
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mtv101 wrote:
it also states that moving outbid workers that they can be put into the bag as an exchange......is the exchange 1 for 1 or if you have multiple workers that were grouped together do you get all of them replaced or do you still only get one worker from the bag?


You can not move them to the bag just because you are moving a failed bid. The rules are clarifying that if something lets you send a meeple to the bag for an exchange (like the tiles that let you pay one to draw two), they still must be moved as a group.
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Dick Hunt
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Sparticuse wrote:

You can not move them to the bag just because you are moving a failed bid. The rules are clarifying that if something lets you send a meeple to the bag for an exchange (like the tiles that let you pay one to draw two), they still must be moved as a group.


Well, that's just it; that rule isn't clarifying anything. It's actually murking things. The rule states (Bidding rule 5):

Quote:
If workers are outbid, they can be moved elsewhere (including to other bids, to production on village tiles, or to the bag as part of an exchange) but must remain together. When moving outbid workers, a player may supplement these with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screen. Workers cannot be moved back behind a player's screen.


The boldfacing is mine.

Casually dropping that reference to an "exchange" into this rule brought our game to a screeching halt for about an hour as we tried to figure out what the hell an "exchange" was. This rule should either have defined the term or referred us to the rule that did. We plumbed the rulebook looking for a definition while debating the meaning of the rule endlessly. One player thought it meant that you could freely exchange losing bids with meeples drawn from the bag. The rest of us didn't buy that, but we couldn't decide upon or find a clearer definition of the term, either.

Even tile descriptions that allow you to exchange things (Hiring Fair, Brewer, Carpenter, Mason, Smelter, Fair, Peddler, Store, Tavern, Workshop) don't use the term "exchange." They give very specific (and excellent, by the way) instructions on how you perform the exchanges that they allow, but we couldn't find the term "exchange" anywhere else in the rules except in that one sentence. That left us to figure it out by inference, and away the argument went.

Most of the rules in this game are wonderfully written--clearly and precisely. But some are not, such as this one. And some rules are very oddly placed in the book. The last paragraph under the Start of season rules has nothing to do with starting a season, and totally belongs with the bidding rules. We could not find that information anywhere in the bidding rules and had to take a stab at how to play it. In that case, we got it right, but only after a lengthy debate.


Another oddity: green workers aren't explained anywhere. A couple of rules mention them, but you're on your own as to figuring out that their rarity is what makes them more valuable than other workers. That's probably fairly obvious after you've played the game once, but when you're trying to learn the game with a group of people, you'll go nuts searching through the rulebook to find out what the green meeples are for...
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Ben
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While I certainly understand where you are coming from, Dick, I think it's funny that your two examples cut in opposite directions.

In the first example, the criticism is that the provision of extra information was confusing (by introducing more information than strictly needed).

In the second example, the criticism is that withholding unnecessary information is confusing (since the green meeples function like all other meeples, no additional rules are strictly necessary).

While I don't think the Keyflower rules are a model of clarity, it does sometimes feel like rules-writers can't win no matter what they do.
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Mike Spartz
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I had a big ole response penned but I realized no matter what I say in response you will just disagree with me. The rules are clear. I'm not going to be trolled further. You obviously know how the game is intended to play.
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Mark Voisin
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I originally asked about this point. "Quote:
If workers are outbid, they can be moved elsewhere (including to other bids, to production on village tiles, or to the bag as part of an exchange) but must remain together. When moving outbid workers, a player may supplement these with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screen. Workers cannot be moved back behind a player's screen."

it says "or to the bag as part of an exchange" that is NOT clear at all.... exchange using what? other meeples in the bag? use the outbid meeple on a building that allows to exchange? all it says "or to the bag"? So if you are unable to clarify this question please find someone, like the designer of the game to answer it like it should be. Thank you
 
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Derry Salewski
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mtv101 wrote:
I originally asked about this point. "Quote:
If workers are outbid, they can be moved elsewhere (including to other bids, to production on village tiles, or to the bag as part of an exchange) but must remain together. When moving outbid workers, a player may supplement these with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screen. Workers cannot be moved back behind a player's screen."

it says "or to the bag as part of an exchange" that is NOT clear at all.... exchange using what? other meeples in the bag? use the outbid meeple on a building that allows to exchange? all it says "or to the bag"? So if you are unable to clarify this question please find someone, like the designer of the game to answer it like it should be. Thank you


That's what people have been arueging about being clear or not, but if you haven't inferred yet:

An exchange is one of the tiles that lets you send a worker or more to the bag for, example, a green worker.

While it might not be explicit in the rules (I don't remember) the definition of exchange certainly applies to the description of how those tiles function!
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So a clarification. This is the quote as it appears in my Keyflower rulebook:

Quote:
If workers are outbid, they can be moved elsewhere but must remain together. When moving outbid workers, a player may supplement these with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screen. Workers cannot be moved back behind a player's screen.


The portion that is being questioned ("including to other bids, to generate production on village tiles or into the bag as part of an exchange") only appears in the "Rules Clarifications" section of The Farmers expansion.

I understand that might not be the case in all rulebooks - this could be a minor revision that not everyone sees. But I feel the intent is very clear and that this only confirms what has been said above.

This single sentence is a clarification and not introducing a new "exchange outbid meeples" option into the game.
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Dick Hunt
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chally wrote:
While I certainly understand where you are coming from, Dick, I think it's funny that your two examples cut in opposite directions.

In the first example, the criticism is that the provision of extra information was confusing (by introducing more information than strictly needed).


The rules of this game are NOT horribly written by any stretch. As I type this, there are something like 123 threads on this forum with rules questions in them. Naturally, some questions get asked more than once, so the number of different questions might only be 100 or even less.

You want to see a great game with poorly written rules? Check out Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization. That game currently has over 700 threads about its rules. Even top-ranked games get rules questions. Puerto Rico has over 300 rules threads as well.

This one rule in Keyflower has a clarity problem and could have been written better, that's all. Using a term ("exchange") just one time in a rule book and leaving us to infer all its possible uses and definitions was a bad idea.

Quote:
In the second example, the criticism is that withholding unnecessary information is confusing (since the green meeples function like all other meeples, no additional rules are strictly necessary).


There. Was that so hard to say? Would it have been so hard to put in the rules? It's extremely odd to have a fairly major component included in a game while barely mentioning it in the rules. Even Catan tells you that the little sticks in the box are used to mark your roads.

Quote:
While I don't think the Keyflower rules are a model of clarity, it does sometimes feel like rules-writers can't win no matter what they do.


Okay, now you're getting it! angry shake
 
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Robert Olesen
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newuser wrote:
So a clarification. This is the quote as it appears in my Keyflower rulebook:

Quote:
If workers are outbid, they can be moved elsewhere but must remain together. When moving outbid workers, a player may supplement these with other losing workers or with workers from behind their screen. Workers cannot be moved back behind a player's screen.


The portion that is being questioned ("including to other bids, to generate production on village tiles or into the bag as part of an exchange") only appears in the "Rules Clarifications" section of The Farmers expansion.

I'm still a bit unclear on this. It popped up in my first Keyflower game yesterday, and we did not have the Farmers expansion. I think a clear example is needed.

Suppose I have two yellow outbid workers, and there is an unoccupied tile in a village that changes a yellow worker to a green. Can I take the two yellow workers to this tile, leave one on the tile to activate it and put the other in the bag to get a green?

This is clearly an exchange, and the workers stay together for a while, but they do not stay together for the whole turn. Which takes preference - staying together og allowing the exchange?

The problem with this game is not the rules, it is the complexity of the game design with all the special cases that have to be described.
 
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Sebastian Bleasdale
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Robert Olesen wrote:

I'm still a bit unclear on this. It popped up in my first Keyflower game yesterday, and we did not have the Farmers expansion. I think a clear example is needed.

Suppose I have two yellow outbid workers, and there is an unoccupied tile in a village that changes a yellow worker to a green. Can I take the two yellow workers to this tile, leave one on the tile to activate it and put the other in the bag to get a green?

This is clearly an exchange, and the workers stay together for a while, but they do not stay together for the whole turn. Which takes preference - staying together og allowing the exchange?

Workers which have been placed together must remain together. What this rule discussing is where the worker groups can be moved to, which includes 'into the bag as part of an exchange'.

So taking your example, you can send your group of two workers to the unoccupied tile, and place a separate yellow worker into the bag in exchange for one green meeple, or you can send another worker to the tile and (over)pay for the exchange by placing your group of two workers into the bag for the one green meeple. Splitting a group up so that it enacts separate parts of an action is not allowed.

I hope that this clarifies matters, and you continue to enjoy Keyflower.

Regards

Sebastian Bleasdale
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Robert Olesen
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Sebastian Bleasdale wrote:
I hope that this clarifies matters, and you continue to enjoy Keyflower.

Regards

Sebastian Bleasdale

It does, and thanks for a swift reply, Sebastian.
The 2nd edition rules are definitely better than the first edition. And it is good to know that the answer to my question is in the rules, provided you read them literally. I've been used to that approach from Combat Commander and much prefer this way to read/write rules.

As for the enjoyment, my first game wasn't all that enjoyable. I watched a (very good) video as preparation, but did not read the rules. I now know that Keyflower is one of those games where you need to read the rules.
For example, I got the Timber Yard and made a lot of wood, expecting to score a lot of points. At the final scoring I discovered that the wood had to be on the Timber Yard to score that bonus. My mistake, but still frustrating. There are many games where such a restriction does not apply, and I would have chosen a different approach had I been aware of this.

I'm not sure all the rules detail appeals to me in the long run, but I'm determined to try it again.
 
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ChToHe
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You would have since all the wood are automatically transported to the final tile for scoring at end game.
 
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steven smolders
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Robert Olesen wrote:
Sebastian Bleasdale wrote:
I hope that this clarifies matters, and you continue to enjoy Keyflower.

Regards

Sebastian Bleasdale

It does, and thanks for a swift reply, Sebastian.
The 2nd edition rules are definitely better than the first edition. And it is good to know that the answer to my question is in the rules, provided you read them literally. I've been used to that approach from Combat Commander and much prefer this way to read/write rules.

As for the enjoyment, my first game wasn't all that enjoyable. I watched a (very good) video as preparation, but did not read the rules. I now know that Keyflower is one of those games where you need to read the rules.
For example, I got the Timber Yard and made a lot of wood, expecting to score a lot of points. At the final scoring I discovered that the wood had to be on the Timber Yard to score that bonus. My mistake, but still frustrating. There are many games where such a restriction does not apply, and I would have chosen a different approach had I been aware of this.

I'm not sure all the rules detail appeals to me in the long run, but I'm determined to try it again.


This game needs repetetly plays to fully understand the game and to know what you need to do to score well .
 
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toucana wrote:
You would have since all the wood are automatically transported to the final tile for scoring at end game.


What do you mean by automatically transported to the final tile for scoring at the end of the game?

The rule states

"Only resources that have been placed on the autumn barn, blacksmith, stone yard and timber yard tiles during the course of the game may be kept on those rules for scoring purposes"

This means that a player must use the production action on a movement tile in order to move goods from tile to tile. I didn't see anything in the rule book that talked about automatic movement of resources for scoring purposes.
 
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Alex P
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number33_ak wrote:

What do you mean by automatically transported to the final tile for scoring at the end of the game?

The rule states

"Only resources that have been placed on the autumn barn, blacksmith, stone yard and timber yard tiles during the course of the game may be kept on those rules for scoring purposes"

This means that a player must use the production action on a movement tile in order to move goods from tile to tile. I didn't see anything in the rule book that talked about automatic movement of resources for scoring purposes.


I have bolded the relevant passage from the rule you quoted. For clarification, those aren't the only tiles that benefit from resources.
 
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Scott Seifert
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Toucana is incorrect here.

Simple Rule: If it's a fall tile, the resources must be moved onto it. If it's a winter tile, it does not matter where the resources are. Regardless, each object (resource, tile, meeple, etc.) can only be scored by a single tile (so gold moved onto the timber yard would not count for any winter tiles or even it's normal points for being gold).
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Colin
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So I have played this with our gaming group and now online at BGA, and had a question about moving out bid workers. We have been playing in our group that as soon as your players have been outbid that you can move them, even if it is not your turn. However on BGA moving outbid workers can only happen on your turn, and if you choose to move them that is your turn.

I've read through the rules, and it doesn't state either way which is correct. Any clarity would be great. Thanks!
 
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Dan Blum
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12thManStanding wrote:
I've read through the rules, and it doesn't state either way which is correct. Any clarity would be great. Thanks!


Certainly this is stated. On page 3 it says

Quote:
On their turn a player places one or more workers into a single location...


And then on page 4 (point 1 under Bidding) it says

Quote:
The workers are taken from behind the player's screen or from a losing bid elsewhere.

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Byron S
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Instead of using workers from behind your screen, you can choose to use workers that have been outbid. This still takes place during the normal turn order.
 
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Derry Salewski
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12thManStanding wrote:
So I have played this with our gaming group and now online at BGA, and had a question about moving out bid workers. We have been playing in our group that as soon as your players have been outbid that you can move them, even if it is not your turn. However on BGA moving outbid workers can only happen on your turn, and if you choose to move them that is your turn.

I've read through the rules, and it doesn't state either way which is correct. Any clarity would be great. Thanks!


Generally rules just state what the rules are. They don't explicitly forbid every made up, weird assumption possible...
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Colin
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Thanks for the quick replies and pointing me to where it was located in the rule book. Very helpful.
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What if you want to move a group of seven workers that have been outbid to an empty production tile to perform an action? Is this possible, in which case you would place six workers on the tile (as that is the maximum ever allowed) and place the remaining worker in the bag? Or is it impossible and a group of seven or more outbid workers is simply unable to use an action tile?

I did not make this up - this happened two hours ago in a game I played.
 
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