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Subject: Lets determine the most annoyingly hard fleet to kill. rss

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Jonathan M D Thomas
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So I was trying to come up with the most absolutely annoying fleet to play against. The one that if you kill it, it may take 3 hours and lots of luck.

It seems pretty obvious you'll want cloaking and its toy, the Interphase Generator, likely putting us at a 2 ship fleet. This effectively gives you the D'Deridrex, Vor'Cha, and Negh'Var Classes to work with. Since we are cloaked and the shields are irrelevant, the D'Deridrex is the weakest option with only 3 attack dice. The extra defense die would be nice, but the 2 extra attack dice make the Klingon ships more viable overall. The Negh'Var has that one extra hull point making it the ideal candidate over the Vor'Cha.

So this Puts us at 2 Negh'Vars with Interphase Generators. On the First, the Combo of Weyoun and Varel seems too good to pass up. That effectively a free attack every turn you get to eat, assuming it goes through your cloak. Assuming you discard Varel in a turn (not necessarily advisable early unless you get a crappy defense roll), Interphase Generator gives you 3 complete attacks you can ignore on any one turn if needed.

So on my second Negh'Var, there are several for a captain, but ultimately, I think Martok makes a lot of sense to help Weyoun re-enable himself and get the cloak back up in the same turn. There just aren't too many defensive commanders at the moment, and those that are have very low captain skill. Martok also gives the ability to run Cheat Death to gain an extra life. I wasn't sure on a last upgrade to fill out the points, but Sulu seems to make the most sense to use in the 1st turn of the encounter.

This build put you at 95 points. I thought about a few things, but ultimately I think the Command Tokens would do the most to help the offensive and defensive capacities of the build with the Final 5 points.

This puts you with a build of:

Klingon Negh'var (Klingon 28)
Weyoun (Dominion 5)
Interphase Generator (Romulan 4)
Varel (Romulan 11)

Klingon Negh'var (Klingon 28)
Martok (Klingon 5)
Interphase Generator (Romulan 4)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 4)
Cheat Death (Federation 6)

Command Tokens (5)
Total Point Cost: 100

Anyone else have any other thought on the most unkillable fleet you can make?
 
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Jared Voshall
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If focusing on a build that can survive forever and a day, I' think something like this would be more frustrating to play against (warning: this involves using all current factions on a single ship):

D'Derix Class
Clark Terrell
Advanced Weapons System
Data

Khazara
Sar
Advanced Weapons System
Sulu

I'm pretty sure that there's some extra points left over to add some actual teeth to the build (probably slap on some Torpedoes). The strategy is to use the Advanced Weapons Systems to stay perma cloaked, only attacking when they are up, and using Sulu/Data to tank the hits that come your way. The Khazara will be rolling 6+1+2+1= 10 Defense dice against attacks at range 1 (almost guaranteeing Sulu will get a Battle Stations to work), while the D'Derix will have 2 Evade Tokens to spend each turn. Not a very killy build (which means that it won't work well with organized play), but extremely frustrating for your opponent to crack while waiting for you to win the ware of attrition.
 
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jonathan kipps-bolton
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How about this -

R.I.S Apnex (14)
Cloaked Mines (3)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Command tokens (5)

the only problem with this setup is the cost of expansions

The alternative is drop the command tokens and a couple of the mines and downgrade the apnex to another science vessel but if you really want annoyance factor I think mines are the way to go
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Dave Benhart
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jiffk wrote:
How about this -

R.I.S Apnex (14)
Cloaked Mines (3)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Command tokens (5)

the only problem with this setup is the cost of expansions

The alternative is drop the command tokens and a couple of the mines and downgrade the apnex to another science vessel but if you really want annoyance factor I think mines are the way to go


Drop the Command Tokens and the Apnex, then add the IRW Valdore for some punch. It's even worse and still have 4 Cloaked Mines on the board. Those Science Vessels just run around the board forcing you to fly through a field full of mines that you can't do anything against. This obnoxious build really makes me think Cloaked Mines should be Unique. They clearly weren't playtested with a lot of them in a fleet.
 
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Ted Kay
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Magius wrote:
If focusing on a build that can survive forever and a day, I' think something like this would be more frustrating to play against (warning: this involves using all current factions on a single ship):

D'Derix Class
Clark Terrell
Advanced Weapons System
Data

Khazara
Sar
Advanced Weapons System
Sulu

I'm pretty sure that there's some extra points left over to add some actual teeth to the build (probably slap on some Torpedoes). The strategy is to use the Advanced Weapons Systems to stay perma cloaked, only attacking when they are up, and using Sulu/Data to tank the hits that come your way. The Khazara will be rolling 6+1+2+1= 10 Defense dice against attacks at range 1 (almost guaranteeing Sulu will get a Battle Stations to work), while the D'Derix will have 2 Evade Tokens to spend each turn. Not a very killy build (which means that it won't work well with organized play), but extremely frustrating for your opponent to crack while waiting for you to win the ware of attrition.


I'd probably swap Sar and Terrell. No point difference but then both of your ships are rolling 8 defense dice, which is still very good, but doesn't paint quite a large target on the generic D'deridex. You could also run the LE Warbird month 3 prize with the Nullifier Core in the second tech slot. I think that might pair well with Benjamin Sisko, who gets a free die re-roll each round.

So it'd be more like:

PWB Aj'rmr - 30
Sar - 2
Nullifier Core - 3
Advanced Weapon System - 6

IRW Khazara - 30
Clark Terrell - 2
Sulu - 3
Advanced Weapon System - 6

So one ship is rolling 8 dice with a Sulu-converted Battle Stations, and the other is re-rolling one of its blank evade dice while at full health. There's no action economy issues for the Aj'rmr with Data, or an attack dice reduction, and if you wanted to, you could squeeze in a Praetus with Donatra to give both of the ships more kick when they shoot, or just load them up with secondary weapons.
 
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Eric B.
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D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Sar (2)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Data (4)
-Crew: Sulu (4)

D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Martok (6)
-Elite Talent: Carbonite Maneuver (6)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Varel (10)

Resource: Elite Command Tokens


Each ship can effectively cancel an attack with the Interphase. Martok's can cancel a whole turn of attacking with Carbonite and then another whole attack with Varel. Otherwise, Martok is at 6 Agility with Evade. Sar's ship repairs every turn if needed (it won't be) with 8 Agility (and mini-Battlestations) and two Evade tokens. Defensively-oriented command tokens to shore up bad rolls.


This list would be pure frustration. The sad thing is, it might actually win certain games too without ever rolling an attack, like OP2 where it could weather the OWP all day long while your opponents ships might get worn down by them.
 
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jonathan kipps-bolton
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davedujour wrote:
jiffk wrote:
How about this -

R.I.S Apnex (14)
Cloaked Mines (3)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Command tokens (5)

the only problem with this setup is the cost of expansions

The alternative is drop the command tokens and a couple of the mines and downgrade the apnex to another science vessel but if you really want annoyance factor I think mines are the way to go


Drop the Command Tokens and the Apnex, then add the IRW Valdore for some punch. It's even worse and still have 4 Cloaked Mines on the board. Those Science Vessels just run around the board forcing you to fly through a field full of mines that you can't do anything against. This obnoxious build really makes me think Cloaked Mines should be Unique. They clearly weren't playtested with a lot of them in a fleet.


I wasnt going for a fleet that was easy to win just annoying and hard to kill as per the original request.

Given that you have 6-7 ships with excellent maneuverability and 6 defense dice it would be very hard to completely destroy.

I might be possible to win with the build but it would take some fancy flying and a bold opponent willing to risk the mines to get in range for an attack.

Also the other builds people have suggested seem to be 2 heavily crewed ships, which wouldn't do well at combating an enemy who also uses cloaked mines or antimatter mines where you roll no defense dice. If you went up against mines or an opponent who had disable/discard enemy update cards you would struggle.
 
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JT Payne
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RogueThirteen wrote:
D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Sar (2)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Data (4)
-Crew: Sulu (4)

D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Martok (6)
-Elite Talent: Carbonite Maneuver (6)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Varel (10)

Resource: Elite Command Tokens


Each ship can effectively cancel an attack with the Interphase. Martok's can cancel a whole turn of attacking with Carbonite and then another whole attack with Varel. Otherwise, Martok is at 6 Agility with Evade. Sar's ship repairs every turn if needed (it won't be) with 8 Agility (and mini-Battlestations) and two Evade tokens. Defensively-oriented command tokens to shore up bad rolls.


This list would be pure frustration. The sad thing is, it might actually win certain games too without ever rolling an attack, like OP2 where it could weather the OWP all day long while your opponents ships might get worn down by them.


You can't combine Sulu and Data, every other turn sure, but you can't stack them.
 
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JT Payne
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I.R.W. Valdore (Romulan 30)
Jean-Luc Picard (Federation 7)
Photon Torpedoes (Romulan 5)
Hikaru Sulu (Federation 4)
Miles O'Brien (Federation 3)
All Forward Disruptor Banks (Romulan 4)

Romulan D'deridex (Romulan 28)
Khan Singh (Independent 4)
Interphase Generator (Romulan 3)
Plasma Torpedoes (Romulan 5)
Data (Federation 4)
Counter Attack (Romulan 3)

Total Point Cost: 100

I am actually undefeated with the above fleet, I have had some close calls, mainly due to dice, but I have pretty much stopped using this fleet so that I don't frustrate other players.
 
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D Conklin
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I think a ship that is decked out to rebuild shields would be even more frustrating than a ship that just cancels your attack....

Something with this as the core:

Kraxon
Mirok
Secondary Shield Emitters
Miles O'Brien (Defiant)

etc....
 
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Thomas Landy
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Davitch wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:
D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Sar (2)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Data (4)
-Crew: Sulu (4)

D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Martok (6)
-Elite Talent: Carbonite Maneuver (6)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Varel (10)

Resource: Elite Command Tokens


Each ship can effectively cancel an attack with the Interphase. Martok's can cancel a whole turn of attacking with Carbonite and then another whole attack with Varel. Otherwise, Martok is at 6 Agility with Evade. Sar's ship repairs every turn if needed (it won't be) with 8 Agility (and mini-Battlestations) and two Evade tokens. Defensively-oriented command tokens to shore up bad rolls.


This list would be pure frustration. The sad thing is, it might actually win certain games too without ever rolling an attack, like OP2 where it could weather the OWP all day long while your opponents ships might get worn down by them.


You can't combine Sulu and Data, every other turn sure, but you can't stack them.


Yes you can. First action, activate Data. Second action (thanks to Martok), activate Sulu.
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Erin OConnor
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This is just 1 ship so far but:

Khazara 30
Toreth R 4
attack pattern omega f 3
advanced weapon system k 5
Quantum Torpedoes f 6
Sulu f 3
55

You get +1 attack when attacking while cloaked. (including secondary weapons).

Quantum Torpedoes are 6 dice (+1 from cloaked) if you score and extra hit, you add +1 hit. Torreth allows you to convert a hit into a crit. AND the elite allows you to cripple their ship with a warp core breach.

AWS allows you to attack and stay cloaked. This is an important one since it denies your opponent target locks.

On the defensive side you have Sulu (nets you 8 defense dice +a battle station -> evade convert)



Working on Martok on a second ship to recycle the attack (AWS + QT) faster.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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dc0nklin wrote:
I think a ship that is decked out to rebuild shields would be even more frustrating than a ship that just cancels your attack....

Something with this as the core:

Kraxon
Mirok
Secondary Shield Emitters
Miles O'Brien (Defiant)

etc....


The Mirok/Kraxon is on of my favorite ships to build do to its survivability. I've gained as much as 10 shields in one game with that build.

That said, a few target locks and concentrated fire from big ships and it will fall relatively quickly with 1 agility and 8 total toughness. The again, sulu, data, etc. could help the Kraxon survive as well.
 
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JT Payne
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H00D4M4N wrote:
Davitch wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:
D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Sar (2)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Data (4)
-Crew: Sulu (4)

D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Martok (6)
-Elite Talent: Carbonite Maneuver (6)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Varel (10)

Resource: Elite Command Tokens


Each ship can effectively cancel an attack with the Interphase. Martok's can cancel a whole turn of attacking with Carbonite and then another whole attack with Varel. Otherwise, Martok is at 6 Agility with Evade. Sar's ship repairs every turn if needed (it won't be) with 8 Agility (and mini-Battlestations) and two Evade tokens. Defensively-oriented command tokens to shore up bad rolls.


This list would be pure frustration. The sad thing is, it might actually win certain games too without ever rolling an attack, like OP2 where it could weather the OWP all day long while your opponents ships might get worn down by them.


You can't combine Sulu and Data, every other turn sure, but you can't stack them.


Yes you can. First action, activate Data. Second action (thanks to Martok), activate Sulu.


Data's card says you can't take another evade action, even as a free action on his card. How are you getting around this?
 
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Jared Voshall
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Davitch wrote:
H00D4M4N wrote:
Davitch wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:
D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Sar (2)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Data (4)
-Crew: Sulu (4)

D'deridex (28)
-Captain: Martok (6)
-Elite Talent: Carbonite Maneuver (6)
-Tech: Interphase Generator (3)
-Crew: Varel (10)

Resource: Elite Command Tokens


Each ship can effectively cancel an attack with the Interphase. Martok's can cancel a whole turn of attacking with Carbonite and then another whole attack with Varel. Otherwise, Martok is at 6 Agility with Evade. Sar's ship repairs every turn if needed (it won't be) with 8 Agility (and mini-Battlestations) and two Evade tokens. Defensively-oriented command tokens to shore up bad rolls.


This list would be pure frustration. The sad thing is, it might actually win certain games too without ever rolling an attack, like OP2 where it could weather the OWP all day long while your opponents ships might get worn down by them.


You can't combine Sulu and Data, every other turn sure, but you can't stack them.


Yes you can. First action, activate Data. Second action (thanks to Martok), activate Sulu.


Data's card says you can't take another evade action, even as a free action on his card. How are you getting around this?


Data's action specifically denies the use of the Evade action - IE, the base action that places an Evade token on your ship. This does not prevent the use of other actions that add Evade tokens or increase Agility, just that specific action provided by the ship's Action Bar and a few other sources (such as Picard's special ability).
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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jiffk wrote:
How about this -

R.I.S Apnex (14)
Cloaked Mines (3)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Command tokens (5)

the only problem with this setup is the cost of expansions

The alternative is drop the command tokens and a couple of the mines and downgrade the apnex to another science vessel but if you really want annoyance factor I think mines are the way to go


I need to mock this up sometime. It would for sure mess up some cloaked fleets, although the individual ships would be somewhat easy to take down. So $$$ to build though.
 
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Dave Benhart
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jmdt784 wrote:
jiffk wrote:
How about this -

R.I.S Apnex (14)
Cloaked Mines (3)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Command tokens (5)

the only problem with this setup is the cost of expansions

The alternative is drop the command tokens and a couple of the mines and downgrade the apnex to another science vessel but if you really want annoyance factor I think mines are the way to go


I need to mock this up sometime. It would for sure mess up some cloaked fleets, although the individual ships would be somewhat easy to take down. So $$$ to build though.


Not as easy as you might think. They're amazingly nimble and defensive while cloaked. And with all those Cloaked Mines on the board that they can zip right through but you have to take damage it will just hurt. Sure, it's only 2 hits to kill one, but you've got to get those 2 hits. By that time the rest have scattered and you need to chase through a bunch of mines again.
 
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C. E. Freeman
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davedujour wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
jiffk wrote:
How about this -

R.I.S Apnex (14)
Cloaked Mines (3)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Romulan Science Vessel (12)
Cloaked Mines (3)

Command tokens (5)

the only problem with this setup is the cost of expansions

The alternative is drop the command tokens and a couple of the mines and downgrade the apnex to another science vessel but if you really want annoyance factor I think mines are the way to go


I need to mock this up sometime. It would for sure mess up some cloaked fleets, although the individual ships would be somewhat easy to take down. So $$$ to build though.


Not as easy as you might think. They're amazingly nimble and defensive while cloaked. And with all those Cloaked Mines on the board that they can zip right through but you have to take damage it will just hurt. Sure, it's only 2 hits to kill one, but you've got to get those 2 hits. By that time the rest have scattered and you need to chase through a bunch of mines again.


They are very easy to 1 shot, even cloaked. There is no need to chase them. Once you kill 1 you fly in circles in a safe zone until the game is over for the most boring victory ever, but I guess that is the point of the thread.

Edit: Point being not getting your fleet destroyed.
 
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Allen Gould
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If we're looking for a hilariously hard ship to kill, I think I'd have to go with (apologies for not having points - posting from work by memory)

Apnex
Cpt: Weyoun
Tech: Interphase
Crew: Varel
Crew: Sulu

You can start with cloak + Sulu to get 8 Agility while you zip around. If you get tagged too badly you can Interphase to ditch damage. If someone has you dead to rights, Weyoun turns Varel into a disable instead of a discard to outright ignore an attack. And on a one-on-one fight you can just keep reloading Weyoun to reuse Varel - it'll take you forever to whittle down a ship, but *you* ain't gonna die.

(If you don't mind paying the penalty for taking Varel off the Apnex, you could upgrade to a Defiant or another 2 Agility ship to increase your damage, but as-is you'd be really really annoying.)
 
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C. E. Freeman
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anyGould wrote:
If we're looking for a hilariously hard ship to kill, I think I'd have to go with (apologies for not having points - posting from work by memory)

Apnex
Cpt: Weyoun
Tech: Interphase
Crew: Varel
Crew: Sulu

You can start with cloak + Sulu to get 8 Agility while you zip around. If you get tagged too badly you can Interphase to ditch damage. If someone has you dead to rights, Weyoun turns Varel into a disable instead of a discard to outright ignore an attack. And on a one-on-one fight you can just keep reloading Weyoun to reuse Varel - it'll take you forever to whittle down a ship, but *you* ain't gonna die.

(If you don't mind paying the penalty for taking Varel off the Apnex, you could upgrade to a Defiant or another 2 Agility ship to increase your damage, but as-is you'd be really really annoying.)


In a one on one you will never die because of the Weyoun/Varel combo.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Has anyone had much success with Mirok in a cloaked ship versus say the Kraxon?

If Weyoun + Varel looks like the #1 captain for this job, Mirok looks like the #2 Captain, however, I'm not so sure the two necessarily work that well in tandem.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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In light of new releases, flagships, admiral's orders, etc. I'm curious if anyone else has devised any new deviously hard ships to kill.
 
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jmdt784 wrote:
In light of new releases, flagships, admiral's orders, etc. I'm curious if anyone else has devised any new deviously hard ships to kill.


Vo
Independent Flagship (reverse of Dominion)
Kirk
3x Cheat Death
Sulu
Interphase Generator
Additional Weapons Array (because why not?)
Strike Force

Attack: 1
Agility: 4 (6 if using Sulu's action)
Hull: 3
Shields: 3

Rolls 10 defense dice when cloaked.
Rolls 7 defense dice when un-cloaked.
Sulu converts a Battlestation to an evade on every roll.
Free Evade token every turn.
Free Sensor Echo every turn from the Order.
IG + 3x Cheat Death means this ship must be "killed" FIVE times before it sticks.
On top of all that, rolls 4 attack dice at range 1-2, with a Battlestations-to-crit conversion.
 
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Justin Hare
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IRW Vo (16)
Romulan Flagship (10)
Sar (1+1)
Sulu (3+1)
Advance Weapon system (5+1)
INSERT NO TARGET LOCK WEAPON HERE

Throw in Captured Intel, Cheat Death, Invaluable Advice(Rav Laerst), Corbomite Maneuver, etc. For the Talent slot provided by the romulan flag

Your ship stats:
ATT: 2 = 1+1(FLAG)
AGI: 5 = 3+1(FLAG)+1(SAR)
HULL: 2
SHIELD: 3 = 2+1(FLAG)

With Sulu and cloak, you have 11 defense with one battlestations converting. If you wish, use the Free evade off of the Vo's unique ability too.

Alternatively, Use Engage. Between free sensor echo (FLAG), your base maneuver, and your engage, you could perform an absurd number of maneuvers. If I was banking off this, I would use a higher skill captain in order to move later. Picard or Dukat so you can swing a Battlestations.
 
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Scott Steiner
United States
Colorado
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If you are going pure,

I like the Praetus with

Independent - Fed
+1 attack, hull, shields
After your Flaghship moves, you may target 1 other friendly ship within Range 1 of your Flagship. Target ship immediately performs a 2nd Action listed on its Action Bar as a free Action this round.
Evade, Crew, Tech
10 points.

Then attach 3x Interphase generators

When defending while you are Cloaked, you may discard this card after all the dice have been rolled to reduce the damage from a single attack to exactly 1 [DAMAGE].

Then assign Varel

Discard this card to cancel a single attack against her ship before any dice are rolled. The canceled attack cannot be directed against a different ship. This Upgrade costs +5 Squadron Points for any ship that is not a Romulan Science Vessel.

Then Mirok as Captain

After you move, if at least one friendly ship is within Range 1 of your ship, repair 1 damage to your Hull or Shields.

You can get the free evade which when added with Interphase generator means that is 3 attacks that do no damage. Then Varel to eliminate one more and Varel can be used against antimatter mines as well.

During normal attacks you are rolling 6 dice with the free evade token next to the ship.



 
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