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Subject: Femme Fatale + Matrix Analyzer rss

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bestia immonda
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What happens when you encounter a Matrix Analyzer with a Femme Fatale?

M.A. : "When the Runner encounters Matrix Analyzer, you may pay 1 Credit to place 1 advancement token on a card that can be advanced.

F.F : "When you install Femme Fatale, choose an installed piece of ice. When you encounter that ice, you may spend 1 Credit per subroutine on that ice to bypass it."

Can the Corp place the token?
Thanks!

 
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Jeremy Hager
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believe so, because "encounter" matches up for both
 
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Brodie
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If the Runner uses Femme to bypass Matrix Analyzer, the Corp doesn't get to place the token. Femme Fatale's ability triggers first (because it's the Runner's turn), and bypassing the ice prevents any triggered on-encounter conditionals from resolving.
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Kevin Jones
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PraetorianXVIII wrote:
believe so, because "encounter" matches up for both
I feel this falls under "simultaneous triggers". Femme bypasses on encounter while Matrix Analyzer boosts on encounter. Simultaneous triggers, so runner chooses: he can allow a card to be advanced, but he can also bypass the encounter ability, just like with Tollbooth or Data Raven, so it doesn't fire since no trigger.

In other words, it doesn't if you bypass it entirely. There's a rule about it somewhere.
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Andrew Keddie
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Rognik wrote:
In other words, it doesn't if you bypass it entirely. There's a rule about it somewhere.


Quite right, it's in the FAQ. Bypass specifically stops any other 'on encounter' effects resolving.
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Adrian Breuch
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Rognik wrote:
PraetorianXVIII wrote:
believe so, because "encounter" matches up for both
I feel this falls under "simultaneous triggers". Femme bypasses on encounter while Matrix Analyzer boosts on encounter. Simultaneous triggers, so runner chooses: he can allow a card to be advanced, but he can also bypass the encounter ability, just like with Tollbooth or Data Raven, so it doesn't fire since no trigger.

In other words, it doesn't if you bypass it entirely. There's a rule about it somewhere.

In this case the runner is not allowed to choose the order.
He can choose to bypass or not to bypass.

The active player has priority.
So first, the runner chooses the order of conditional abilites on runner cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.
And then the corp chooses the order of conditional abilites on corp cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.

Femme Fatal has to be resolved first.
If the runner dosen't want to use the bypass effect, then the corp has to resolve Matrix analyser.
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Kevin Jones
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Zyankalium wrote:
Rognik wrote:
PraetorianXVIII wrote:
believe so, because "encounter" matches up for both
I feel this falls under "simultaneous triggers". Femme bypasses on encounter while Matrix Analyzer boosts on encounter. Simultaneous triggers, so runner chooses: he can allow a card to be advanced, but he can also bypass the encounter ability, just like with Tollbooth or Data Raven, so it doesn't fire since no trigger.

In other words, it doesn't if you bypass it entirely. There's a rule about it somewhere.

In this case the runner is not allowed to choose the order.
He can choose to bypass or not to bypass.

The active player has priority.
So first, the runner chooses the order of conditional abilites on runner cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.
And then the corp chooses the order of conditional abilites on corp cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.

Femme Fatal has to be resolved first.
If the runner dosen't want to use the bypass effect, then the corp has to resolve Matrix analyser.
But choosing to bypass IS choosing the order, although now I wonder if the runner can bypass the subroutine if not bypassing the "when encountered" ability.
 
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Brodie
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Rognik wrote:
But choosing to bypass IS choosing the order, although now I wonder if the runner can bypass the subroutine if not bypassing the "when encountered" ability.


No, the Runner cannot. Either the Runner bypasses the ice and any remaining on-encounter conditionals are prevented from resolving, or the Runner does not bypass the ice and on-encounter conditionals resolve.

Note that Femme Fatale does not bypass subroutines; she bypasses ice, and it's all or nothing. If Femme targets Ichi 1.0 with her ability, the Runner may not pay 2C to bypass both "-> Trash a program." subroutines, but leave the trace subroutine "unbypassed." Either the Runner pays 3C and bypasses Ichi 1.0, or Ichi is encountered normally.
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Andy Mills
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Rognik wrote:
Zyankalium wrote:
Rognik wrote:
PraetorianXVIII wrote:
believe so, because "encounter" matches up for both
I feel this falls under "simultaneous triggers". Femme bypasses on encounter while Matrix Analyzer boosts on encounter. Simultaneous triggers, so runner chooses: he can allow a card to be advanced, but he can also bypass the encounter ability, just like with Tollbooth or Data Raven, so it doesn't fire since no trigger.

In other words, it doesn't if you bypass it entirely. There's a rule about it somewhere.

In this case the runner is not allowed to choose the order.
He can choose to bypass or not to bypass.

The active player has priority.
So first, the runner chooses the order of conditional abilites on runner cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.
And then the corp chooses the order of conditional abilites on corp cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.

Femme Fatal has to be resolved first.
If the runner dosen't want to use the bypass effect, then the corp has to resolve Matrix analyser.
But choosing to bypass IS choosing the order, although now I wonder if the runner can bypass the subroutine if not bypassing the "when encountered" ability.


They cannot. If the runner declines to use Femme, they cannot then use Femme AFTER the corp uses (or declines to use) Matrix Analyzer. The Runner MUST resolve their conditional abilities first.
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Adrian Breuch
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manydills wrote:
Rognik wrote:
Zyankalium wrote:
Rognik wrote:
PraetorianXVIII wrote:
believe so, because "encounter" matches up for both
I feel this falls under "simultaneous triggers". Femme bypasses on encounter while Matrix Analyzer boosts on encounter. Simultaneous triggers, so runner chooses: he can allow a card to be advanced, but he can also bypass the encounter ability, just like with Tollbooth or Data Raven, so it doesn't fire since no trigger.

In other words, it doesn't if you bypass it entirely. There's a rule about it somewhere.

In this case the runner is not allowed to choose the order.
He can choose to bypass or not to bypass.

The active player has priority.
So first, the runner chooses the order of conditional abilites on runner cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.
And then the corp chooses the order of conditional abilites on corp cards that share the "when encoutner"-condition.

Femme Fatal has to be resolved first.
If the runner dosen't want to use the bypass effect, then the corp has to resolve Matrix analyser.
But choosing to bypass IS choosing the order, although now I wonder if the runner can bypass the subroutine if not bypassing the "when encountered" ability.


They cannot. If the runner declines to use Femme, they cannot then use Femme AFTER the corp uses (or declines to use) Matrix Analyzer. The Runner MUST resolve their conditional abilities first.


Just like manydills said: The Runner MUST resolve their conditional abilities first.
And the rules tell that you are not allowed to trigger the same conditional ability with the same gamestate more than once.

FF triggers: Runner resolves by choosing not to bypass.
MA triggers: Corp resolves.
FF is not allowed to trigger a second time.
The state of encoutering a piece of ice has not chanaged, it is still the same encounter. A new encounter with that ice will trigger FF.


 
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Kevin Jones
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Agent Archer wrote:
Note that Femme Fatale does not bypass subroutines; she bypasses ice, and it's all or nothing. If Femme targets Ichi 1.0 with her ability, the Runner may not pay 2C to bypass both "-> Trash a program." subroutines, but leave the trace subroutine "unbypassed." Either the Runner pays 3C and bypasses Ichi 1.0, or Ichi is encountered normally.
This, I knew. I guess I was overthinking things a little.
 
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