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Subject: Medical tissue samples, anatomy and the Shoa rss

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This aticle has horrifying implications.
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That's exactly why informed consent is essential in human subjects research today.
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I'm having some trouble here. I skimmed the article, so maybe that's the source of my confusion. Is there anyone here who doesn't agree on the following two things:

1. Nazis were very bad people
2. You can get pregnant from rape

I know there are fringe wackos who would disagree with one or both, but is anyone here really willing to argue the other side? I don't see this leading to much discussion, unless I'm just missing the point...
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happyjosiah wrote:
I'm having some trouble here. I skimmed the article, so maybe that's the source of my confusion. Is there anyone here who doesn't agree on the following two things:

1. Nazis were very bad people
2. You can get pregnant from rape

I know there are fringe wackos who would disagree with one or both, but is anyone here really willing to argue the other side? I don't see this leading to much discussion, unless I'm just missing the point...


Well I would strongly suggest you go read it rather than skim it. If you read the article thoroughly you will discover it goes into a lot about bio-ethics and social pressure and other ethical considerations in great detail.

Many things worth talking about and certainly worth thinking about about.

This isn't one of the typical one trick pony opinion pieces that often get posted here where one idea gets posited and hammered repeatedly from only slightly different angles. It is a deep piece which brings up many things to consider that are far more nuanced than what you took from it so far.


Quote:
Caplan ... argues for the importance of seeing the doctors who took advantage of Nazi immorality to benefit their research not as “kooks,” but instead as typical and conventional for their time and place. “One of the great challenges in all of ethics is, how do mainstream, legitimate people do evil things?” he said. “It’s not like we can necessarily stop it. But to understand how it happened—that is our best shot.”

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For one, it strongly argues that most banks of tissue sample world-wide are of ethically questionable origin.

EDIT:
So what exactly do we as a society do?
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whac3 wrote:
.

EDIT:
So what exactly do we as a society do?


Time Machine.

 
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Fuck me are these people mental, do they not even check the facts they regurgitate just a little, I know conservatives hate it but USE GOOGLE.

I hope though moshe I do not misunderstand the point you are making.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Fuck me are these people mental, do they not even check the facts they regurgitate just a little, I know conservatives hate it but USE GOOGLE.

I hope though moshe I do not misunderstand the point you are making.

I have no specific point except that we have the real ethical issue, termed in the paper the Henrietta Lacks problem, that most of the tissue cultures used in medical research come from ethically tainted sources. We obviously can't stop all medical research. So how do we address the issue?

EDIT:
It's not a simple question and there are no simple answers.
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Folks have been thumped on the back of the head in an alley or had a fiver slipped to the mortician and turned into lab work for as long as there have been labs.


Is it the sellers, is it the buyers?

Competition? Thirst for knowledge? Speed and ease of skipping a step?

Or are doctors just weird fuckers?
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fuck me are these people mental, do they not even check the facts they regurgitate just a little, I know conservatives hate it but USE GOOGLE.

I hope though moshe I do not misunderstand the point you are making.

I have no specific point except that we have the real ethical issue, termed in the paper the Henrietta Lacks problem, that most of the tissue cultures used in medical research come from ethically tainted sources. We obviously can't stop all medical research. So how do we address the issue?

EDIT:
It's not a simple question and there are no simple answers.
There are two issues raised in the article, on is tainted samples (not a lot we can do about that really, it a sense it's too late for the victims, our energy is best spent ensuring it never happens again) the other is the use of tainted (and in most cases discredited) Nazi research to support half arsed anti-choice arguments, that is something we an do something about.
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Moshe Callen
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Altair IV wrote:
Folks have been thumped on the back of the head in an alley or had a fiver slipped to the mortician and turned into lab work for as long as there have been labs.


Is it the sellers, is it the buyers?

Competition? Thirst for knowledge? Speed and ease of skipping a step?

Or are doctors just weird fuckers?

Yeah but if we simply turn a blind eye, we condone these things. On the other hand, if we dump all the samples, we cripple medical research; if we get rid of results from unethically obtained bodies and tissues, we basically destroy Western medicine as we know it. Neither is a good option.

Obviously we have to keep medical research because it helps us keep people alive, which does ethically make up for a lot, albeit not for everything. So how do we acknowledge and address the ethical issues without doing something thoroughly stupid?

I'm not sure given the history we should just trust the medical community to come up with its own answers but we certainly need that input.
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whac3 wrote:
Altair IV wrote:
Folks have been thumped on the back of the head in an alley or had a fiver slipped to the mortician and turned into lab work for as long as there have been labs.


Is it the sellers, is it the buyers?

Competition? Thirst for knowledge? Speed and ease of skipping a step?

Or are doctors just weird fuckers?

Yeah but if we simply turn a blind eye, we condone these things. On the other hand, if we dump all the samples, we cripple medical research; if we get rid of results from unethically obtained bodies and tissues, we basically destroy Western medicine as we know it. Neither is a good option.

Obviously we have to keep medical research because it helps us keep people alive, which does ethically make up for a lot, albeit not for everything. So how do we acknowledge and address the ethical issues without doing something thoroughly stupid?

I'm not sure given the history we should just trust the medical community to come up with its own answers but we certainly need that input.
Not sure that this really is a 'medical community problem' this is rather medicine and politics combining. Certainly certain unethical elements of the medical profession took advantage of the political climate in Germany at the time to further their own careers and research. In that respect I partially agree with you, just being a doctor does not make you some kind of moral (or intellectual) paragon, and we do put far to much faith in their good offices. Thus I agree that medicine (and science) needs to have outside scrutiny of it's ethics and methods.
 
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It's especially the samples taken from victims of the Shoa but there's also things like samples taken from Henrietta Lacks, a black woman from America who died of cervical cancer. Some ridiculous amount of tissue samples worldwide originate with her. Yet neither she nor her family were ever asked for consent, basically because she was black and had desirable tissue properties.
 
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whac3 wrote:
It's especially the samples taken from victims of the Shoa but there's also things like samples taken from Henrietta Lacks, a black woman from America who died of cervical cancer. Some ridiculous amount of tissue samples worldwide originate with her. Yet neither she nor her family were ever asked for consent, basically because she was black and had desirable tissue properties.
I have to admit I have no issue with taking tissue form dead people, they are dead. The only issue I have is how they died.
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
It's especially the samples taken from victims of the Shoa but there's also things like samples taken from Henrietta Lacks, a black woman from America who died of cervical cancer. Some ridiculous amount of tissue samples worldwide originate with her. Yet neither she nor her family were ever asked for consent, basically because she was black and had desirable tissue properties.
I have to admit I have no issue with taking tissue form dead people, they are dead. The only issue I have is how they died.

That's a bloody callous attitude. The body is the last remains of a person. Even if you don't feel the need to respect that person, what of their family and friends?
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
It's especially the samples taken from victims of the Shoa but there's also things like samples taken from Henrietta Lacks, a black woman from America who died of cervical cancer. Some ridiculous amount of tissue samples worldwide originate with her. Yet neither she nor her family were ever asked for consent, basically because she was black and had desirable tissue properties.
I have to admit I have no issue with taking tissue form dead people, they are dead. The only issue I have is how they died.

That's a bloody callous attitude. The body is the last remains of a person. Even if you don't feel the need to respect that person, what of their family and friends?
What of their friends and family? The body is a vessel nothing more, it is not the person, the person has passed on. Moreover (as you point out) this tissue sampling has been used to save lives, maybe the lives of the 'victims' family and friends, surely that is a greater legacy then a complete body that will rot away anyway? It's not as if the body remains an inviolate temple of the person, for ever retains their life semblance.
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slatersteven wrote:
What of their friends and family? The body is a vessel nothing more, it is not the person, the person has passed on.

That's a very culturally Christian attitude.
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Moreover (as you point out) this tissue sampling has been used to save lives, maybe the lives of the 'victims' family and friends, surely that is a greater legacy then a complete body that will rot away anyway? It's not as if the body remains an inviolate temple of the person, for ever retains their life semblance.

So the ends justifies the means?
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What of their friends and family? The body is a vessel nothing more, it is not the person, the person has passed on.

That's a very culturally Christian attitude.
So what your viewpoint is as much a refection of your culture is that an argument against it? Any moral stance s informed by your cultural background, but does persons cultural background, The problem comes when two moral codes collie, whose should take precedence? the one that produces the greatest (social) benefit or the one that produces the most (individual) upset?
Quote:

Quote:
Moreover (as you point out) this tissue sampling has been used to save lives, maybe the lives of the 'victims' family and friends, surely that is a greater legacy then a complete body that will rot away anyway? It's not as if the body remains an inviolate temple of the person, for ever retains their life semblance.

So the ends justifies the means?
Depends (as I implied earlier) on the means.
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Personally, if I had been awaiting to be executed by the Nazis, I would probably hoped that a more civilised society down the roads could derive meaning from my death - symbolic or otherwise. Subjectively, I would hope that my dead body could be useful to anyone. That's I carry an organ donor card.

Objectively, though, I understand how this issue is problematic to many and I respect their opinons. But I think it should be, if at all possible, the will of the individual alone, what to be done with their dead body. I completely sympathise with parents for example, whose child has died, when they in their grief reject the body to be used for medical purposes.
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Moreover (as you point out) this tissue sampling has been used to save lives, maybe the lives of the 'victims' family and friends, surely that is a greater legacy then a complete body that will rot away anyway? It's not as if the body remains an inviolate temple of the person, for ever retains their life semblance.

So the ends justifies the means?
Depends (as I implied earlier) on the means.

That was a rhetorical question. Both the ends (scientific progress) and the means (using dead bodies for scientific research) are pretty clear here.
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Simon Mueller wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Moreover (as you point out) this tissue sampling has been used to save lives, maybe the lives of the 'victims' family and friends, surely that is a greater legacy then a complete body that will rot away anyway? It's not as if the body remains an inviolate temple of the person, for ever retains their life semblance.

So the ends justifies the means?
Depends (as I implied earlier) on the means.

That was a rhetorical question. Both the ends (scientific progress) and the means (using dead bodies for scientific research) are pretty clear here.
Not exactly, as the goal posts were marginally shifted, the Holocaust was an act of mass murder, the black woman died of cancer, they do not equate.

 
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This isn't shifting the goals. Both are taking tissues and bodies without informed consent. The circumstances of the Shoa are simply far more horrible.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Altair IV wrote:
Folks have been thumped on the back of the head in an alley or had a fiver slipped to the mortician and turned into lab work for as long as there have been labs.


Is it the sellers, is it the buyers?

Competition? Thirst for knowledge? Speed and ease of skipping a step?

Or are doctors just weird fuckers?

Yeah but if we simply turn a blind eye, we condone these things. On the other hand, if we dump all the samples, we cripple medical research; if we get rid of results from unethically obtained bodies and tissues, we basically destroy Western medicine as we know it. Neither is a good option.

Obviously we have to keep medical research because it helps us keep people alive, which does ethically make up for a lot, albeit not for everything. So how do we acknowledge and address the ethical issues without doing something thoroughly stupid?

I'm not sure given the history we should just trust the medical community to come up with its own answers but we certainly need that input.



A tricky business to balance skeevy to outright evil things that have good outcomes.

I heard that story on Lacks....her tissue samples seem to almost propagate themselves and can contaminate work throughout an entire lab.
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whac3 wrote:
It's especially the samples taken from victims of the Shoa but there's also things like samples taken from Henrietta Lacks, a black woman from America who died of cervical cancer. Some ridiculous amount of tissue samples worldwide originate with her. Yet neither she nor her family were ever asked for consent, basically because she was black and had desirable tissue properties.


This summer, after some 50 years Henrietta Lacks' family *were* brought into the loop, and now have a say in how her cell lines and genome are used.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/nih-finally-makes-good-henriet...
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
What of their friends and family? The body is a vessel nothing more, it is not the person, the person has passed on.

That's a very culturally Christian attitude.


Isn't it also an atheist view? I understand it's not Judaism's view, but isn't it the vast majority of modern humanity's view?

For cases where samples were illegally taken, my vote is to punish the person that took it, but keep the samples unless giving them back makes the person or person's family much happier.
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