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Zombicide Season 2: Prison Outbreak» Forums » Rules

Subject: M04 (The Welder) - sit-and-wait for molotov? rss

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CJ Kucera
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We finally had a chance to try out a Season 2 round the other night and picked M04. We were playing with just four survivors, so this situation's a little unlikely for people playing with more, but we found ourselves at one point in the game with a single survivor outside the prison area (with the welder), and enough zombies inbetween the buildings that breaking through was basically completely impossible.

We realized, though, that if the "outside" survivor just hid out in the welder room while the other two remaining survivors sat there searching for molotov parts (with the building locked tight), there was essentially zero downside to doing so (apart from it being a rather boring way to play the scenario, but at that point it seemed to be literally our only way of winning). The survivors inside would just make noise every turn to lure the zombies to the locked front door, so the single survivor hiding in the welder room wouldn't attract any zombie attention. Extra activations were non-events since the zombies were just milling about at the doorstep, no zombies would spawn inside the building so long as the purple door was closed, and the occasional walker that pops up during searching is easily dealt with.

It took us a good 15-or-so turns to finally get a molotov together, and a few turns later we were all safely holed up in the prison.

Anyway, long story short (too late!) I'm just curious if I've missed something else in the rules which would make this a bad plan, apart from the aforementioned boring-way-to-play-the-scenario angle.
 
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Peter Cooper
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The downside to loads of zombies and a Molotov is that one person suddenly shoots up in experience. I have heard two reports in the last week of that moment losing people the game (one of them was a session report here on BGG).

Glad you did okay, though.

I think some scenarios are simply a case of doing what you did. Others require a different kind of thinking. That way, the game has lots of variety.
 
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Jonah Rees
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We had a very similar scenario in mission M.01. We'd locked the prison up and were stuck inside with the Abomination, but we just kited him whilst we searched for molotov parts or the concrete saw (including finishing off the deck and reshuffling as the character with the saw had died to an extra activation). Every spawn was causing activations because we had all the miniatures out but it was a non-event because they couldn't get into the prison. Was a shame as although thematic in a way, was a bit boring. We just called the mission in the end because I wanted to go home!
 
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CJ Kucera
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Stephanie Baynes wrote:
The downside to loads of zombies and a Molotov is that one person suddenly shoots up in experience. I have heard two reports in the last week of that moment losing people the game (one of them was a session report here on BGG).

Oh, for sure, it's a problem - that was actually one of the factors which put us in that mess in the first place... Partially due to only playing with four survivors, it took us quite awhile to make our way over and open the main prison doors, and had a molotov ready to exterminate the big ol' horde. Turns out there was JUST enough experience in there to put the thrower up into red. "Fortunately" for us, that survivor ended up dying after a few more turns, so back into yellow we went. :)

jonahmaul wrote:
Was a shame as although thematic in a way, was a bit boring. We just called the mission in the end because I wanted to go home!


We did accelerate our sit-and-search turns quite a bit by just drawing from the item cards until we had found what we were looking for, and then drawing the required number of zombie cards once we'd established how many turns it just took us to find our equipment.
 
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Peter Cooper
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Well, I am so glad for you that your Molotov-throwing survivor died. We don't play that you go down to the next highest spawn level when the highest level survivor dies. When you're there, it's tough luck. Is there a Q&A on that somewhere?
 
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CJ Kucera
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Stephanie Baynes wrote:
Well, I am so glad for you that your Molotov-throwing survivor died. We don't play that you go down to the next highest spawn level when the highest level survivor dies. When you're there, it's tough luck. Is there a Q&A on that somewhere?

I know it's been brought up here before somewhere, but there's also this in the rulebook:
The Rules v20131024, page 13 wrote:
Read the line on the card that corresponds to the color of the Danger Level of the most experienced Survivor still in the game (Blue, Yellow, Orange, or Red).

(The Prison Outbreak rules has identical phrasing, though on page 17.) So yeah, if someone gets killed, you can possibly move down into lower danger levels. It's possible that maybe the original printed rules were worded more ambiguously.
 
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Barry Hood
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sekhmet wrote:

I know it's been brought up here before somewhere, but there's also this in the rulebook:
The Rules v20131024, page 13 wrote:
Read the line on the card that corresponds to the color of the Danger Level of the most experienced Survivor still in the game (Blue, Yellow, Orange, or Red).

(The Prison Outbreak rules has identical phrasing, though on page 17.) So yeah, if someone gets killed, you can possibly move down into lower danger levels. It's possible that maybe the original printed rules were worded more ambiguously.


There's also, more specifically in relation to a survivor dying (on page 14 of the S1 rulebook):

Quote:
ATTENTION: The Danger Level used for spawning Zombies is set by the Survivor with the highest Danger Level still in the game. If this Survivor is eliminated, the Danger Level drops to that of the next most experienced Survivor.
 
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Brad B
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Wouldn't the zombies have gone after the lone survivor in the welding room instead of piling outside the prison?

The third point under Move on page 16:
"If they can't see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most noise tokens and to which there is an open path."

I'm assuming the prison was locked down, so there was no open path to the survivors inside. Leaving the only open path to a survivor being the lone survivor in the welding shed.
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Scott Hill
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Ranerdar wrote:
Wouldn't the zombies have gone after the lone survivor in the welding room instead of piling outside the prison?

The third point under Move on page 16:
"If they can't see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most noise tokens and to which there is an open path."

I'm assuming the prison was locked down, so there was no open path to the survivors inside. Leaving the only open path to a survivor being the lone survivor in the welding shed.


This.
 
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Peter Anderson
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sekhmet wrote:
We realized, though, that if the "outside" survivor just hid out in the welder room while the other two remaining survivors sat there searching for molotov parts (with the building locked tight), there was essentially zero downside to doing so (apart from it being a rather boring way to play the scenario, but at that point it seemed to be literally our only way of winning). The survivors inside would just make noise every turn to lure the zombies to the locked front door, so the single survivor hiding in the welder room wouldn't attract any zombie attention.


Unfortunately, this doesn't work. PO rulebook p.16:
"-If they can't see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most Noise tokens and to which there is an open path.
-If they can't see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them."

Pay extra attention to the word "and" in the first sentence and the "no" in the second sentence. Smart zombies know about open paths...

Therefore, in your scenario the zombies actually would have brutally dismembered the survivor in the welder's room BEFORE going towards the supernoisy locked-in survivors

EDIT: Whoops, someone already answered this... I had this page up on my ipad for a few hours and didn't refresh before answering^^
 
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CJ Kucera
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Ranerdar wrote:
The third point under Move on page 16:
"If they can't see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most noise tokens and to which there is an open path."

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
I'm assuming the prison was locked down, so there was no open path to the survivors inside. Leaving the only open path to a survivor being the lone survivor in the welding shed.

xyzzu wrote:
Therefore, in your scenario the zombies actually would have brutally dismembered the survivor in the welder's room BEFORE going towards the supernoisy locked-in survivors


Aha! Man, right y'all are. I wonder how we missed that! Rookie mistake. I suppose it's just 'cause we're not used to actually having a mechanic available to close doors.

Anyway: awesome, I'm glad that our plan turned out to be infeasible after all. It certainly didn't "feel" right.
 
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Andi Anonymous
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I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.

 
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Thiago Aranha
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Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.

Yeah, that's a direct change in the rules.
 
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Scott Hill
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Loophole Master wrote:
Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.

Yeah, that's a direct change in the rules.

So do they go to a reachable target or don't they?

And am I the only one that's confused here?
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Brad B
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Loophole Master wrote:
Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.

Yeah, that's a direct change in the rules.

So do they go to a reachable target or don't they?

And am I the only one that's confused here?


You are not. I'm still going with the go to the nosiest group to which there is an open path.
 
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Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.


Huh, what do you know? I suppose the most problematic bit of the phrasing is the differences in the final two movement bullets (bold emphasis mine) -

The Rules wrote:
( If they can’t see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most Noise tokens.
* If they can’t see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them.


There's no mention of reassigning target priorities, so it does make some sense that "the survivors" in the second bullet is actually just talking about the noisiest zone, but the grammar could get cleaned up to make that more clear.

So our strategy turned out to be valid, after all! I suppose it does make sense from a thematic perspective, given that Zombicide zombies are otherwise completely sight-and-sound-driven. Having them choose their targets based on available pathing would be a departure from the movement rules.
 
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Andi Anonymous
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Loophole Master wrote:
Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.

Yeah, that's a direct change in the rules.

So do they go to a reachable target or don't they?

And am I the only one that's confused here?


They pile up at the door. They DON'T move on to a reachable target.

My question was regarding scenario C32. Would the abominations hunt down a single hiding survivor if they get blocked by the rotating gate to get to the noisiest group beyond the gate. The answer was no. Zombies always go for the noisest target no matter if it is reachable or not. They DON'T move on to another reachable target.
 
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Brad B
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Abbath wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Loophole Master wrote:
Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.

Yeah, that's a direct change in the rules.

So do they go to a reachable target or don't they?

And am I the only one that's confused here?


They pile up at the door. They DON'T move on to a reachable target.

My question was regarding scenario C32. Would the abominations hunt down a single hiding survivor if they get blocked by the rotating gate to get to the noisiest group beyond the gate. The answer was no. Zombies always go for the noisest target no matter if it is reachable or not. They DON'T move on to another reachable target.


Well, then I've found my first house rule. I don't like that at all. I'd like to think the zombies in my movie wouldn't keep banging against the closed door when something is making noise in the open house across the street.
 
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Andi Anonymous
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Well, then I've found my first house rule. I don't like that at all. I'd like to think the zombies in my movie wouldn't keep banging against the closed door when something is making noise in the open house across the street.


But this would prevent some valid tactics like lock zombies up by sneaking around them.
 
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Jonah Rees
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sekhmet wrote:
Abbath wrote:
I asked Guillotine Games about this very topic a few weeks ago.

Q: "When the noisiest target can't be reached will zombies switch to a reachable target?"
Guillotine Games: No.


Huh, what do you know? I suppose the most problematic bit of the phrasing is the differences in the final two movement bullets (bold emphasis mine) -

The Rules wrote:
( If they can’t see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most Noise tokens.
* If they can’t see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them.


There's no mention of reassigning target priorities, so it does make some sense that "the survivors" in the second bullet is actually just talking about the noisiest zone, but the grammar could get cleaned up to make that more clear.

So our strategy turned out to be valid, after all! I suppose it does make sense from a thematic perspective, given that Zombicide zombies are otherwise completely sight-and-sound-driven. Having them choose their targets based on available pathing would be a departure from the movement rules.


To re-quote and re-emphasize though:

The Rules wrote:
( If they can’t see anybody, they move toward the Zone that contains the most Noise tokens.
* If they can’t see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them.


In the example you described there was an open path. Therefore they wouldn't move towards the noisiest zone as if all zones were open, they would move towards the nosiest zone with an open path (i.e. the single survivor making one noise on his own). If that survivor had ninja you'd be golden, but otherwise he is zombie bait.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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As I said, this latest ruling by GG is a direct change to the rules as written in the current rulebook.
 
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Andi Anonymous
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"If they can’t see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them."

This doesn't say anything about moving towards another target. It only says that if the path is not open, it uses the shortest way AS IF all doors were open. It seems some are interpreting this as "shortest way WHERE doors are open".

The rules aren't change in any way. They are the same all the time.
 
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Ron Price
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Abbath wrote:
"If they can’t see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them."

This doesn't say anything about moving towards another target. It only says that if the path is not open, it uses the shortest way AS IF all doors were open. It seems some are interpreting this as "shortest way WHERE doors are open".

The rules aren't change in any way. They are the same all the time.


The FAQ makes it clear, though, that they'll choose another target if there is an open path available.
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Andi Anonymous
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puzzlemonkey wrote:
Abbath wrote:
"If they can’t see anybody and there are no open paths to the Survivors, they move toward the noisiest Zone as if all doors were open, though locked doors still stop them."

This doesn't say anything about moving towards another target. It only says that if the path is not open, it uses the shortest way AS IF all doors were open. It seems some are interpreting this as "shortest way WHERE doors are open".

The rules aren't change in any way. They are the same all the time.


The FAQ makes it clear, though, that they'll choose another target if there is an open path available.


On Facebook they said otherwise. See the comments on scenario C32.

Which FAQ are you refering to?
 
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Thiago Aranha
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Guys, again, there's no point in discussing this any further. By the current rulebook the zombies will always target a zone they can reach (unless there is no such option). However, GG is now ruling it differently so that zombies always target the noisiest zone.
 
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