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Subject: Wide release rss

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Mark McCoy
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Does anyone know if Caverna is going to have a wide release before the holidays? Super excited for this one!
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Al Washburn
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I sure hope so, I'll be watching this thread closely.
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James Dalley
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The mayfair website lists a date of 12/20/13
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Michael Young
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Sounds like it'll be early January then. No biggie, hopefully you'll get some fun titles to play until it arrives
 
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Oliver Yang
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just found out that this will be retailed at $80+ at online retailers?

If it's under $50 it'd be an insta-buy for me, but at $80... I'm not sure. I understand it is a big heavy game, but so are twilight imperium 3, terra mystica, war of the ring, galaxy trucker, etc. Some of them even have a MSRP lower than $80! I definitely think this game is overpriced

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Mathue Faulkner
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hegel325 wrote:
just found out that this will be retailed at $80+ at online retailers?

If it's under $50 it'd be an insta-buy for me, but at $80... I'm not sure. I understand it is a big heavy game, but so are twilight imperium 3, terra mystica, war of the ring, galaxy trucker, etc. Some of them even have a MSRP lower than $80! I definitely think this game is overpriced


A large part of the reason why it's at $80 is because of Mayfair's policy regarding online retailers. Otherwise, you'd probably find it at similar prices to TI3 since they have the same MSRP. Also, this game has more packed in it than at least a couple of the games you mentioned, and I'm not familiar with the content in the others...
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James Dalley
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The main issue is that all the resources are custom shapes. Unlike Agricola where those were optional add ons. Plus there has to be enough pieces for 7 players. This game is expensive but I don't believe it is overpriced.
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Rick Scholes
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It IS overpriced when you expect to only play it solo.
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James Dalley
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bankrupt wrote:
It IS overpriced when you expect to only play it solo.


I can agree with that.
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Mark McCoy
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hegel325 wrote:
just found out that this will be retailed at $80+ at online retailers?

If it's under $50 it'd be an insta-buy for me, but at $80... I'm not sure. I understand it is a big heavy game, but so are twilight imperium 3, terra mystica, war of the ring, galaxy trucker, etc. Some of them even have a MSRP lower than $80! I definitely think this game is overpriced



Yeah I do feel that is a little expensive but from what I have seen the game is just packed with bits. I'm willing to pay $80 for it but thats about the limit. Most of the games I have bought were out for a year before I got them so I am unfamiliar with how game prices fluctuate over time.
 
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Josh
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I'd shell for it at $55 even though it's not a real 'must have' for me, just to put it in the Rosenberg area of my shelf. But at $80, yeah, that's two other perfectly good games. Even if this one is good, it's not two games.

Edit:Got the pricing scheme strong. it'd be $63ish for online retail normally. which would cause me to wince as it's over what I like to shell on any game except actual collection pieces, but I would still pay it, because stuff.
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Max Lampinen
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But... One game you play 21 times IS worth two games you play less than 10 times, in a way. For non-collector. I've definitely grown to regret some average purchases instead of just saving for top100 game. Plus it saves nature.
I'm skipping Caverna myself, but quantity shouldn't come before quality. Or.. watching the best movie of the summer is usually better than matinee of 2 pretty good ones.
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Jonathan
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How people can moan about the price is beyond me. The amount of content you get is certainly more than your typical Euro. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one with this much wood/card in the base game. It's certainly the heaviest (weight) Euro I own.

Complaining that you don't need to use all the bits in solo is a fair point but - serious - what did you expect? For them to create a base set (with just the components for one) and then additional sets for each further player you wish to add?

I was one of the first to complain about Ora et Labora and its tissue-thin rulebooks but Lookout Games seem to have taken that on board. The quality here is top notch.

There are plenty of games out their to complain about; poor quality, consistently missing pieces, typos, etc. but this is simply not one of them.
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Josh
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JJWonderboy wrote:
How people can moan about the price is beyond me. The amount of content you get is certainly more than your typical Euro. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one with this much wood/card in the base game. It's certainly the heaviest (weight) Euro I own.

Complaining that you don't need to use all the bits in solo is a fair point but - serious - what did you expect? For them to create a base set (with just the components for one) and then additional sets for each further player you wish to add?

I was one of the first to complain about Ora et Labora and its tissue-thin rulebooks but Lookout Games seem to have taken that on board. The quality here is top notch.

There are plenty of games out their to complain about; poor quality, consistently missing pieces, typos, etc. but this is simply not one of them.


The problem is that this isn't a case of content.

Caverna will retail for $90 US. I suppose we could assume that Mayfair/Lookout has convinced Retailers to swallow a very tiny margin on Caverna, but that would be assuming something against business interest so let's not.

This means that Caverna must still follow the general producer->distributor->retail curve of price increases. So Mayfair/Lookout isn't actually making more on Caverna than any other publisher on a $90 game on the market.

This means with a base OLGS discount of 30%(fluctuates) Caverna would sell for $63 OLGS, with Mayfair/Lookout making exactly the same as if it sold for $90. It is normally up to the OLGS how deep they want to discount (frequently based on demand/supply, normal market factors). Mayfair/Lookout has decreed that thou shalt not sell our game for less than 10% under retail. All this with no extra money in Mayfair/Lookout's pocket.

I suppose they could be looking to champion FLGS, however I find that a bit unlikely without something to support it. Or more likely they could be looking to drive publisher direct sales which will have a much higher profit margin on an $81 sale than an OLGS or FLGS would.

I just know it's cost them 2 purchases from me so far, this and Global Mogul.
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Shadrach wrote:

This means with a base OLGS discount of 30%(fluctuates) Caverna would sell for $63 OLGS, with Mayfair/Lookout making exactly the same as if it sold for $90. It is normally up to the OLGS how deep they want to discount (frequently based on demand/supply, normal market factors). Mayfair/Lookout has decreed that thou shalt not sell our game for less than 10% under retail. All this with no extra money in Mayfair/Lookout's pocket.


That's what bugs me about the price fixing... if an OLGS is willing to sell it at a 30% discount and is still able to make enough profit at that price to make it worth doing, that's the OLGS's decision to make. The 10% discount restriction doesn't benefit Mayfair/Lookout at all.

OLGS are being forced to take a higher profit per sale, with the tradeoff of probably fewer sales. High margin, low volume can be profitable... but higher volume, lower margin will sell more games and make customers happier. Either way, Mayfair/Lookout makes the same amount per game sold... wouldn't more copies sold be preferable?!
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David
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bankrupt wrote:
It IS overpriced when you expect to only play it solo.

Maybe you can loan out the rest of the game to a couple who will pay it 2 player?

(only half joking...)
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Michael Carter
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stlm wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

This means with a base OLGS discount of 30%(fluctuates) Caverna would sell for $63 OLGS, with Mayfair/Lookout making exactly the same as if it sold for $90. It is normally up to the OLGS how deep they want to discount (frequently based on demand/supply, normal market factors). Mayfair/Lookout has decreed that thou shalt not sell our game for less than 10% under retail. All this with no extra money in Mayfair/Lookout's pocket.


That's what bugs me about the price fixing... if an OLGS is willing to sell it at a 30% discount and is still able to make enough profit at that price to make it worth doing, that's the OLGS's decision to make. The 10% discount restriction doesn't benefit Mayfair/Lookout at all.

OLGS are being forced to take a higher profit per sale, with the tradeoff of probably fewer sales. High margin, low volume can be profitable... but higher volume, lower margin will sell more games and make customers happier. Either way, Mayfair/Lookout makes the same amount per game sold... wouldn't more copies sold be preferable?!


I think Mayfair is trying to push sales to brick-and-mortar stores. I was talking to my FLGS owner about it a couple days ago and the game is following the normal retail pricing where the OLGS would definitely be able to sell the game at the normal 30% discount. By only allowing a 10% discount, that allows brick and mortar stores who charge MSRP to compete with the OLGS.

My FLGS sells games to me at below MSRP, so neither myself or the FLGS owner are appreciative of the price fixing.

I bought the most recent printing of Agricola with animeeples for $50. I would consider buying Caverna for $63, but I am never going to pay $80 or more for it.
 
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Oliver Yang
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JJWonderboy wrote:
How people can moan about the price is beyond me. The amount of content you get is certainly more than your typical Euro. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one with this much wood/card in the base game. It's certainly the heaviest (weight) Euro I own.

Complaining that you don't need to use all the bits in solo is a fair point but - serious - what did you expect? For them to create a base set (with just the components for one) and then additional sets for each further player you wish to add?

I was one of the first to complain about Ora et Labora and its tissue-thin rulebooks but Lookout Games seem to have taken that on board. The quality here is top notch.

There are plenty of games out their to complain about; poor quality, consistently missing pieces, typos, etc. but this is simply not one of them.


I highly doubt the extra 500 bits and counters would double the cost when you are manufacturing thousands of copies. I remember awhile ago someone who was self-publishing his game posted a thread on the forum inviting people to guess how much the unit cost would be for his game which had a fair amount of components (def much more than a typical euro). Many guessed $20 or $30 but the actual cost turned out to be like $13 or $14. Also he was planning on a small print run as a self publisher so I'm guessing with Mayfair running a much bigger print run the cost of components is even lower.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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hegel325 wrote:
JJWonderboy wrote:
How people can moan about the price is beyond me. The amount of content you get is certainly more than your typical Euro. In fact, I'm struggling to think of one with this much wood/card in the base game. It's certainly the heaviest (weight) Euro I own.

Complaining that you don't need to use all the bits in solo is a fair point but - serious - what did you expect? For them to create a base set (with just the components for one) and then additional sets for each further player you wish to add?

I was one of the first to complain about Ora et Labora and its tissue-thin rulebooks but Lookout Games seem to have taken that on board. The quality here is top notch.

There are plenty of games out their to complain about; poor quality, consistently missing pieces, typos, etc. but this is simply not one of them.


I highly doubt the extra 500 bits and counters would double the cost when you are manufacturing thousands of copies. I remember awhile ago someone who was self-publishing his game posted a thread on the forum inviting people to guess how much the unit cost would be for his game which had a fair amount of components (def much more than a typical euro). Many guessed $20 or $30 but the actual cost turned out to be like $13 or $14. Also he was planning on a small print run as a self publisher so I'm guessing with Mayfair running a much bigger print run the cost of components is even lower.

How about shipping the behemoth of a box? And how many of those 'components' were custom shaped? How much in terms of art? What quality?
 
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8-bit Matt
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As far as the high price, I'm hearing lots of "I'll never play Agricola again!" So perhaps if you have Agricola you can sell it to offset the cost of Caverna
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Matt Shinners
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mlcarter815 wrote:
I think Mayfair is trying to push sales to brick-and-mortar stores. I was talking to my FLGS owner about it a couple days ago and the game is following the normal retail pricing where the OLGS would definitely be able to sell the game at the normal 30% discount. By only allowing a 10% discount, that allows brick and mortar stores who charge MSRP to compete with the OLGS.


But why should they require a company to price fix in order to compete? If they can't provide a comparative value to an OLGS (not necessarily with prices, but by providing services an OLGS can't), then they shouldn't be in business.
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MattShinners wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
I think Mayfair is trying to push sales to brick-and-mortar stores. I was talking to my FLGS owner about it a couple days ago and the game is following the normal retail pricing where the OLGS would definitely be able to sell the game at the normal 30% discount. By only allowing a 10% discount, that allows brick and mortar stores who charge MSRP to compete with the OLGS.


But why should they require a company to price fix in order to compete? If they can't provide a comparative value to an OLGS (not necessarily with prices, but by providing services an OLGS can't), then they shouldn't be in business.


You don't have to tell me that. It's Mayfair who is setting the price fix.
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stlm wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

This means with a base OLGS discount of 30%(fluctuates) Caverna would sell for $63 OLGS, with Mayfair/Lookout making exactly the same as if it sold for $90. It is normally up to the OLGS how deep they want to discount (frequently based on demand/supply, normal market factors). Mayfair/Lookout has decreed that thou shalt not sell our game for less than 10% under retail. All this with no extra money in Mayfair/Lookout's pocket.


That's what bugs me about the price fixing... if an OLGS is willing to sell it at a 30% discount and is still able to make enough profit at that price to make it worth doing, that's the OLGS's decision to make. The 10% discount restriction doesn't benefit Mayfair/Lookout at all.

OLGS are being forced to take a higher profit per sale, with the tradeoff of probably fewer sales. High margin, low volume can be profitable... but higher volume, lower margin will sell more games and make customers happier. Either way, Mayfair/Lookout makes the same amount per game sold... wouldn't more copies sold be preferable?!


Sure, OLGS can sell it for whatever they want...just like Mayfair can sell their games to whatever retailer they do or do not want. And if OLGS's want to sell certain games that they think will be popular they need to do what the publisher wants. Otherwise they won't get the game at all and people who want to buy the game will go to the competitors.

Whether or not people like this decision, I can totally see a number of reasons Mayfair would do it. For one, it is almost impossible here on BGG to go on a new game thread and hear people talk about how the price is way too high. No matter what the price actually is. Caverna could be $20 and people will complain it is too much because some OLGS is offering it for $12 with free shipping.

It is the perception of value for a product. Mayfair wants their products to have value in the eyes of consumers and allowing OLGS's to undercut what they believe is a fair price takes away value by depreciating the game. It also impact many other games on the market as customers start doing the inevitable mental comparisons between different games...which again, happens all the time on BGG forums. People saying, "Well, game X was $50 and that had way more cards so Caverna should be less money" or "I paid $90 for game Y and its components were nowhere near as nice as Caverna so the other game was a rip off and Caverna is appropriate". Except these comments are made without any indication of the actuall costs and expectations of profit for a game.

The reality is that people who want caverna will buy it, even with only very small discounts. Those who don't want to pay full price will likely just buy a used copy somewhere down the line. Those who don't care won't pay anything anyway. At the end of the day I am assuming Mayfair is making a business decision they fell will help the company and all its games.
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MattShinners wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
I think Mayfair is trying to push sales to brick-and-mortar stores. I was talking to my FLGS owner about it a couple days ago and the game is following the normal retail pricing where the OLGS would definitely be able to sell the game at the normal 30% discount. By only allowing a 10% discount, that allows brick and mortar stores who charge MSRP to compete with the OLGS.


But why should they require a company to price fix in order to compete? If they can't provide a comparative value to an OLGS (not necessarily with prices, but by providing services an OLGS can't), then they shouldn't be in business.


Honestly, I think this is very destructive logic. You are basically saying almost all local, small businesses should go out of business. The owners/employees should be laid off. Local economies will be hurt because someone feels entitled to a larger discount on material goods that aren't needed at all, technically. The Walmartization of all things.
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Al Washburn
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Mools wrote:

Sure, OLGS can sell it for whatever they want...just like Mayfair can sell their games to whatever retailer they do or do not want. And if OLGS's want to sell certain games that they think will be popular they need to do what the publisher wants. Otherwise they won't get the game at all and people who want to buy the game will go to the competitors.

Whether or not people like this decision, I can totally see a number of reasons Mayfair would do it. For one, it is almost impossible here on BGG to go on a new game thread and hear people talk about how the price is way too high. No matter what the price actually is. Caverna could be $20 and people will complain it is too much because some OLGS is offering it for $12 with free shipping.

It is the perception of value for a product. Mayfair wants their products to have value in the eyes of consumers and allowing OLGS's to undercut what they believe is a fair price takes away value by depreciating the game. It also impact many other games on the market as customers start doing the inevitable mental comparisons between different games...which again, happens all the time on BGG forums. People saying, "Well, game X was $50 and that had way more cards so Caverna should be less money" or "I paid $90 for game Y and its components were nowhere near as nice as Caverna so the other game was a rip off and Caverna is appropriate". Except these comments are made without any indication of the actuall costs and expectations of profit for a game.

The reality is that people who want caverna will buy it, even with only very small discounts. Those who don't want to pay full price will likely just buy a used copy somewhere down the line. Those who don't care won't pay anything anyway. At the end of the day I am assuming Mayfair is making a business decision they fell will help the company and all its games.


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