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Subject: Cub Scout vs. War Raptor rss

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John X
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Player A has already played a war raptor on some base, so it currently has strength 3.

Player B has played a cub scout somewhere and through some other means, moves the War Raptor to that base, does it die?

Our game ruled it's up to the current player (who is likely player B) as its killing ability and the war raptor's power up ability happen at the same time (when war raptor arrives on a base) and that it falls under this ruling: "Additional Rules: If multiple effects happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is determines their order."

Did we do it right or does the War Raptor's strength not fall while it's being moved or were we wrong for some other reason entirely?
 
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J
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Johnorama wrote:
Player A has already played a war raptor on some base, so it currently has strength 3.

Player B has played a cub scout somewhere and through some other means, moves the War Raptor to that base, does it die?

Our game ruled it's up to the current player (who is likely player B) as its killing ability and the war raptor's power up ability happen at the same time (when war raptor arrives on a base) and that it falls under this ruling: "Additional Rules: If multiple effects happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is determines their order."

Did we do it right or does the War Raptor's strength not fall while it's being moved or were we wrong for some other reason entirely?


You were wrong for some other reason entirely.

While War Raptor is being moved it's power does indeed fall to 2 due to not being on base however the full text of War Raptor's ability is:

War Raptor: Ongoing: Gain +1 power for each War Raptor on this base (including this one)

Whereas Cub scout reads:

Cub Scout: Ongoing: After another player's minion moves here, if it has less power than this minion destroy it.

Notice anything?

Cub Scout's ability says AFTER... (yada yada yada). Hence cub Scout is forced to give War Raptor the benefit of any power benefits that might kick in first and since War Raptor's ability does not have "After" it gets to trump the Cub Scout's ability and happens first and the thing about starting player getting to pick which ability gets to resolve first is not invoked.

The most obvious place you can see this is on the Leprechaun which actually explicitly states (resolve it's ability first). Oh and to pre-empt anyone who might try this although Cub Scout's ability does not say "resolve it's ability first" like Leprechaun's does you'll notice that the text for the Leprechaun appears in parenthesis which I interpret to mean it's a clarification and not a limitation.
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Simon Tan
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allstar64 wrote:
Johnorama wrote:
Player A has already played a war raptor on some base, so it currently has strength 3.

Player B has played a cub scout somewhere and through some other means, moves the War Raptor to that base, does it die?

Our game ruled it's up to the current player (who is likely player B) as its killing ability and the war raptor's power up ability happen at the same time (when war raptor arrives on a base) and that it falls under this ruling: "Additional Rules: If multiple effects happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is determines their order."

Did we do it right or does the War Raptor's strength not fall while it's being moved or were we wrong for some other reason entirely?


You were wrong for some other reason entirely.

While War Raptor is being moved it's power does indeed fall to 2 due to not being on base however the full text of War Raptor's ability is:

War Raptor: Ongoing: Gain +1 power for each War Raptor on this base (including thins one)

Whereas Cub scout reads:

Cub Scout: Ongoing: After another player's minion moves here, if it has less power than this minion destroy it.

Notice anything?

Cub Scout's ability says AFTER... (yada yada yada). Hence cub Scout is forced to give War Raptor the benefit of any power benefits that might kick in first and since War Raptor's ability does not have "After" it gets to trump the Cub Scout's ability and happens first and the thing about starting player getting to pick which ability gets to resolve first is not invoked.

The most obvious place you can see this is on the Leprechaun which actually explicitly states (resolve it's ability first). Oh and to pre-empt anyone who might try this although Cub Scout's ability does not say "resolve it's ability first" like Leprechaun's does you'll notice that the text for the Leprechaun appears in parenthesis which I interpret to mean it's a clarification and not a limitation.


There's also the definition of move and ongoing to consider:

Smash Up Rulebook, page 8 wrote:

Move: This lets you move a card from one location to another. Moving a card does not count as playing it. Minion abilities do not happen when you move a card.

Ongoing: Most abilities happen, and then they're over. Ongoing abilities are active for as long as they're in play.


If the assumption that War Raptor's ability has to trigger again (and be subject for the "multiple effects" rule) when moving to a new base is true, then the rules will actually not allow it to trigger again due to the underlined portion of Move. This makes sense for most minion abilities, but...

The definition of ongoing makes it clear that it doesn't trigger on entry, but it is an "always on" effect while it is in play.
 
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J
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Well sorta. The real issue about a moving War Raptor is that while you are correct that a War Raptor's Ongoing ability is always "on" it only gets a +1 power while it is in play and at a base with a War Raptor on it so for a split second while it moves from one base to another it does indeed return to being a power 2 minion since it is not on a base.

If Cub Scout didn't have "after" and instead was worded something like:

Cub Scout: Ongoing: Whenever another player's minion moves here, if it has less power than this minion destroy it.
(DISCLAIMER: NOT ACTUAL TEXT OF CARD)

Than 2 effects would be resolving at the same time and the starting player could kill the War Raptor
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John X
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Not that I doubt your answer or disagree with your reasoning, I'm just curious now if any developers have chimed in somewhere on the nature of "After" and if they've officially stated that related effects get to resolve first.

Again I agree with your intepretation, just wondering aloud I suppose.
 
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J
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Sadly no. The developers have not been the most attentive when it comes to rulings not specifically covered in the rulebook. This is the closest I have is this:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10488884#10488884

Of course the obvious comeback is that Leprechaun specifically says you resolve it's text first whereas Cub Scout does not however as I noted above due to the way it's written on Leprechaun I've interpreted it as a clarification as oppose to a limitation.
 
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Simon Tan
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allstar64 wrote:
Well sorta. The real issue about a moving War Raptor is that while you are correct that a War Raptor's Ongoing ability is always "on" it only gets a +1 power while it is in play and at a base with a War Raptor on it so for a split second while it moves from one base to another it does indeed return to being a power 2 minion since it is not on a base.


I don't think the rules supports having a minion not on a base. Whenever a minion is played, its on a base. Whenever a minion is moved, it's to another base.

In that regard, I don't think the rules supports things like "timing" issues given that only one player can play anything at a given time, hence the rule that the OP quoted. (The exception here is specials, but if I recall correctly, these are all when a base is about to score.)
 
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