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Mage Knight Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Midnight Meditation and Mind Read/Steal rss

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Chris Berry
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Can Midnight Meditation be used in response to another player casting Mind Read/Steal?
 
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Donny Behne
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I don't have the cards in front of me so the descriptions would be helpful.

That said, there's no real response system to this game. There's very little you can do between turns (ransack a village comes to mind) so I'd say no, you can't.
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Chris Berry
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4. Midnight Meditation
One time this Night, before any of your turns, you may shuffle up to 5 cards (including Wounds) from your hand back into your Deed deck and then draw that many cards. Then, flip this card face down.

Mind Read
Choose a color. Gain a crystal of the chosen color to your Inventory. Each other player must discard a Spell or Action card of that color from their hand, or reveal their hand to show that they have none.

Mind Steal
Same as the basic effect. In addition to that , you may decide to permanently steal one of the Action cards (not Spells) discarded this way and put it into your hand.

As there is no official action/response system in place this is an edge case. Just looking for a consensus on some one trying this. Unless you guess and announce the use of Midnight Meditation before the other player announces their use of Mind Read/Steal I think you just have to live with not hiding any cards before Mind Read/Steal. Wondering if anyone has an arguement for/against this one.
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Perry Clayton
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Bart Keys
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delewobmesid wrote:
Can Midnight Meditation be used in response to another player casting Mind Read/Steal?

I'd let them do it, I'd also let them plunder a village or flip motivation.

Without timing rules on interactive spells, I can't see there's a reason not to.
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Tom H
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This is from the Lost Legion rulebook, but I think it is a clarification that should be taken to understand how all Mage Knight rules are meant to work.

Immediate Effects
Effects that do not provide Move, Influence, Healing points,
or Attack or Block, work immediately at the moment they are
played. They cannot be delayed and no other effects can be
played before they are processed
. If these effects modify some
value or rules, these modifications last until the end of your turn.


Edit: see below - found a silly rule in Lost Legion that destroys this elegant simplicity.
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GeekInsight
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delewobmesid wrote:
Wondering if anyone has an arguement for/against this one.


Off the top of my head, I'd say no. Mage Knight, unlike other games (such as Magic), does not have a "response" system. So I think the default answer should be "no." Unless a card or ability specifically indicates it is to be used "in response," then it can't be so used.

Even so, when Midnight Meditation says "before one of your turns," I've always interpreted that to mean immediately before your turn. As in, the prior player just went. That may not be strictly true, though.
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Tom H
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Found further Lost Legion clarification that says explicitly that you CAN interrupt mind read as long as it is done before they choose a color. What a mess of timing that can create for no improvement to the game.
Lost Legion rules page 10 wrote:
Before Your Turn /
In Turns of Other Players Effects

You can play these effects between any two of your turns
(even if they immediately follow each other) and also before
your first turn (after Tactic selection). This also applies in solo
games.
You cannot play them in the following situations:
• during your End of Turn sequence (for example: you cannot
plunder a village before you level up or claim your combat
reward).
• before Tactic selection is finished at the start of the Round
• after your last turn during the Round.
You can play these effects independently, or in reaction to another
player’s actions (and evaluate them before those actions).
You cannot do that in the middle of an effect evaluation, though
(for example, you can use the Motivation Skill after a player announces
he is playing the Mind Read Spell, but you cannot wait
until he announces which color he chooses for it).
If you have to
play out of order (cooperative assault or defense, attack of another
player), you can play these effects before you get to play
(whether you take a full turn in advance or not).


So EFFECTS can't be interrupted but there is a GAP between playing a card (or skill? or spending a unit?) where other things can happen before the uninterruptable effect.

So Motivation (and presumably Midnight Meditation) can respond to Mind Read, and I imagine the reverse can happen too...
A: I will flip Motivation now in B's turn
B: Sure, before you apply that effect and draw 2 cards I play Mind Read against your current hand.


I have to say I really hate this rule in MK. The game isn't helped by it and it just makes things more complicated than they could be.
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Ryan Yan
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I noticed this queer timing in the LL rulebook but I wasn't aware that it's related to not only Motivation / village plundering but also this night Tactic.

So if I want to play Mind Read / Mind Steal, AND there's a Motivation or Midnight Meditation not used yet or a player in a village who has not plundered it yet, I have to hold announcing the color until related player(s) have announced their decisions explicitly, right?
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Pol Michiels
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Terah wrote:

So Motivation (and presumably Midnight Meditation) can respond to Mind Read, and I imagine the reverse can happen too...
A: I will flip Motivation now in B's turn
B: Sure, before you apply that effect and draw 2 cards I play Mind Read against your current hand.



Don't you need it to be your turn to play Mind Read?
 
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Philip
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Boscrossos wrote:
Terah wrote:

So Motivation (and presumably Midnight Meditation) can respond to Mind Read, and I imagine the reverse can happen too...
A: I will flip Motivation now in B's turn
B: Sure, before you apply that effect and draw 2 cards I play Mind Read against your current hand.



Don't you need it to be your turn to play Mind Read?


You are correct, you can't play Mind Read if it's not your turn.

I think Terah might have been thinking about this scenario.

If it's Player's A turn
- Player's B announce that's he's flipping Motivation.
- Player A Wait for Player B to reveal his card
- Player A can now decide to Play Mind Read as a reaction to Player's B Motivation move.


Scratch that.

If it's Player's A turn
- Player's B announce that's he's flipping Motivation.
- Before Player B to reveal his card
- Player A announce he wants to play Mind Read before the two extra cards are fliped.

I'm not sure.. let me re-read the rules.

I would say yes, Player A can have a reaction, before Player B reveals his card if he's fast enough.
 
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Mike
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I have to agree with Tom that this is really against the spirit of the game. Should the issue ever come up for me I'd house rule that you cannot 'interrupt' a card or Skill being played. Actions, such as playing a card, are resolved in the other they come.
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