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Subject: Pass on turn four? rss

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Swibble Stein
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Now... I don't have this game yet, but... there is a question that I could not find the answer to, and, while it's probably a rare situation, I'd still like to know.

In the event that on turn four, the queen bee hasn't been placed, but, at the same time, placing a tile is not a legal move (as there is no location that does not touch a piece of the opposite color)... there would seem to be a conflict of the rules. The rules state that the player must play the Queen Bee on turn four, but the rules also force the player to pass.

What would happen in this scenario?
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Keng Leong Yeo
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I can't imagine that scenario taking place, but supposing it does, it just means the player must place the Queen Bee on the very next move that he/she is able to do so.

Edit: Thinking about it more, I don't think that situation is possible. There will always be a location to place the Queen Bee.
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Russ Williams
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As explained in Hive FAQ, if you have no legal move, then you simply pass.

As to whether this situation could actually happen on turn 4... like Yeoster, I rather doubt it and don't see a way to make it happen even if both players are trying to make it happen - do you have an example?
 
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Nico
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Remember the rule that you can't move your pieces until you placed you bee.
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Jarek Szczepanik
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ZdadrDeM wrote:
Remember the rule that you can't move your pieces until you placed you bee.


Yes. But you place new bugs then, so you still don't pass.
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Jonathan Warren
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ZdadrDeM wrote:
Remember the rule that you can't move your pieces until you placed you bee.

Which means that there should not be a situation where a player cannot place his bee on turn 4. I highly doubt that one can get into this situation.

Edit: Well, looking at my set quickly, I can see that it is indeed possible to reach this hypothetical situation, although the player would have to be playing rather poorly to get into this position. Not to mention that it really would be game over is they did!

Another edit: I was wrong
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Russ Williams
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JoffW wrote:
Edit: Well, looking at my set quickly, I can see that it is indeed possible to reach this hypothetical situation, although the player would have to be playing rather poorly to get into this position. Not to mention that it really would be game over is they did!

Please show an example. I don't see a way for it to happen.
 
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Jarek Szczepanik
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I think Joff meant a situation where there is no field to place your bug (imagine your opponent has placed the Queen early and moved an Ant or Spider to block your placing of the Queen). I don't have my set at hand right now but I believe it's possible for some openings.
 
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Russ Williams
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Svartisen wrote:
I think Joff meant a situation where there is no field to place your bug (imagine your opponent has placed the Queen early and moved an Ant or Spider to block your placing of the Queen). I don't have my set at hand right now but I believe it's possible for some openings.

Yes, I agree that's what he means, but I don't believe it's possible.

P1 places queen.
P2 places non-queen.

P1 places ant.
P2 places non-queen adjacent to their first non-queen.

P1 moves their ant. It's not possible to move it to a place making it impossible for P2 to place another non-queen (do we agree? if not please show such a position, because I'm sure not seeing it)
P2 places a 3rd non-queen.

P1 does what exactly to make it impossible for P2 to place a 4th piece...?


PS: A meta-argument that it's not possible is that I don't recall ever seeing this question discussed in the forum before; if it could actually happen, surely it be a much more frequently asked question...
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Jonathan Warren
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russ wrote:
JoffW wrote:
Edit: Well, looking at my set quickly, I can see that it is indeed possible to reach this hypothetical situation, although the player would have to be playing rather poorly to get into this position. Not to mention that it really would be game over is they did!

Please show an example. I don't see a way for it to happen.

My apologies to all. Like a big twit I did not take into account that pieces when first added to the hive must not touch an opposing coloured piece. Therefore, the situation is impossible to replicate. Sorry once again.
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Swibble Stein
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I must admit I was mistaken: It is theoretically possible to have no moves available on turn four - but it is not, at the same time, possible to not have played the queen yet in those situations.

My problem was that I was looking at end-configurations, rather than how to reach them... And so I rather jumped the gun with this question.

Sorry for the error.
 
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Billy McBoatface
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Isn't it possible to create the situation with these (awful and unlikely) moves:

1w. Q

Q

1b. a

Q a

2w. A

A Q a

2b. Move a

A Q
a

3w. A

A
A Q
a

3b. Move a

A a
A Q

4w. Move A

A
A a
Q


If I have the rules right, black now cannot move or place a piece, and has obviously not placed the queen yet.
 
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Frank Griese
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wmshub wrote:
Isn't it possible to create the situation with these (awful and unlikely) moves:

1w. Q
Q

1b.a
Q a

2w. A
A Q a

2b. Move a
A Q a


It is not unlikely, it is illegal! surprise

White places his Queen Bee, black a first ant, white a first ant, black then moves his ant ?

Black is not allowed to move his ant as long as his queen been is not in the Hive !
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John Yianni
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Clawdragons wrote:
Now... I don't have this game yet, but... there is a question that I could not find the answer to, and, while it's probably a rare situation, I'd still like to know.

In the event that on turn four, the queen bee hasn't been placed, but, at the same time, placing a tile is not a legal move (as there is no location that does not touch a piece of the opposite color)... there would seem to be a conflict of the rules. The rules state that the player must play the Queen Bee on turn four, but the rules also force the player to pass.

What would happen in this scenario?


Oh come on, you have to give me a bit more credit than that

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Billy McBoatface
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linael wrote:
Black is not allowed to move his ant as long as his queen been is not in the Hive !
Ah, dangit, I forgot that rule. In that case I think it's pretty clear that this can't happen. The "trapped" player will have played three pieces, which requires at least three others to leave nowhere to put the 4th piece; but the three others must be spread out, requiring two moves. 3 placements + 2 moves, can't be done by the 4th turn! Which I guess those of you who remember all the rules knew already...
 
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