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Subject: Fix for Cloak and Secondary Weapons Issues rss

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Geoffrey LeClair
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Looking back at the many great space battles from DS9 during the Dominion War it becomes clear that Klingon and Romulan ships did not remain cloaked during the heat of the battle. They would come in cloaked fire off an initial volley as they decloaked and then remained uncloaked for the remainder of the battle, unless they became seriously damaged or were attempting to disengage from the main conflict. One on one battles were a different story much like TOS Balance of Terror but when the big ships come out to fight they do not stay on cloak.
To simulate this and attempt to address the issues with cloaking being too powerful and lack of use of secondary weapons I propose the following variant.

Cloaked ships may not fire primary weapons. Cloaked ships can drop cloak during their action phase and then spend an action to get a target lock allowing them to fire secondary weapons. They may not fire primary weapons as long as there is any type of cloaked marker on or next to their ship. Essentially the Captain is giving the order to drop cloak lock torpedoes on target and fire! This creates a need for secondary weapons on the big ships with strong primary weapons and gives them reasons to not stay on cloak during the entire battle. Now that they have fired their initial volley they have to chose to remain / go back on cloak and spend time reloading torpedoes or remain uncloaked and start pounding their foes with their heavy hitting primary weapons as seen in The battles of the Dominion War.

I would like to hear any feed back anyone may have on this idea. Thanks!
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Rusty Dice
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zauis wrote:
Looking back at the many great space battles from DS9 during the Dominion War it becomes clear that Klingon and Romulan ships did not remain cloaked during the heat of the battle. They would come in cloaked fire off an initial volley as they decloaked and then remained uncloaked for the remainder of the battle, unless they became seriously damaged or were attempting to disengage from the main conflict. One on one battles were a different story much like TOS Balance of Terror but when the big ships come out to fight they do not stay on cloak.
To simulate this and attempt to address the issues with cloaking being too powerful and lack of use of secondary weapons I propose the following variant.

Cloaked ships may not fire primary weapons. Cloaked ships can drop cloak during their action phase and then spend an action to get a target lock allowing them to fire secondary weapons. They may not fire primary weapons as long as there is any type of cloaked marker on or next to their ship. Essentially the Captain is giving the order to drop cloak lock torpedoes on target and fire! This creates a need for secondary weapons on the big ships with strong primary weapons and gives them reasons to not stay on cloak during the entire battle. Now that they have fired their initial volley they have to chose to remain / go back on cloak and spend time reloading torpedoes or remain uncloaked and start pounding their foes with their heavy hitting primary weapons as seen in The battles of the Dominion War.

I would like to hear any feed back anyone may have on this idea. Thanks!


I don't like it. Not only does it hurt a lot of existing cards, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why shouldn't a cloaked ship be able to target lock while cloaked? Their target isn't invisible.

Being able to drop cloak in the action phase is actually an advantage! Cloaked ships have to decloak the turn before performing boarding actions currently. You'd be making it easier for us in missions such as OP1.

Cloaking is a drain on actions. You have to re-cloak every turn following an attack, which means you can't perform other actions, whereas choosing to remain uncloaked frees up those options.

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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Keep in mind this is not an actual Star Trek battle simulator. Things don't have to make perfect sense from a cannon perspective.

Cloaking was different in testing and was modified to make it more balanced for overall gameplay based on one of Andrew's early articles.
 
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Dan Dedeaux
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I think the best fix is going to be starting the game over from scratch lol...not that I think there's a problem, per se...but, I would have liked to see ships with slightly higher stats. Say: 1 extra agility each (cloak only gives +3 though), 1 extra hull and shield each.

We already know attacks are going to hit. There's just a huge advantage going to the attacker in this game. But, these are starships. It would be nice to see epic fights (that aren't too drawn out), instead of having ships destroyed in 1 or 2 shots.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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swgod98 wrote:
I think the best fix is going to be starting the game over from scratch lol...not that I think there's a problem, per se...but, I would have liked to see ships with slightly higher stats. Say: 1 extra agility each (cloak only gives +3 though), 1 extra hull and shield each.

We already know attacks are going to hit. There's just a huge advantage going to the attacker in this game. But, these are starships. It would be nice to see epic fights (that aren't too drawn out), instead of having ships destroyed in 1 or 2 shots.


After playing 2 hour games of X-Wing where ships refuse to die, I'm glad this game plays out much quicker thanks to the low agility and higher attack. I get twice as many games in that way Attack wing games take ~30 minutes per player where XWing games take ~ 1 hour per player from my experience.
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Nicholas Bazzano
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The only problem I have with cloaks as of now, is the ability to remain cloaked the entire battle, unless you're forced to skip your activation step. And, the increased defense dice for Romulans to simulate their better cloaks.

The best fixes I can see for these little problems, would be to have a separate reference card for each specific ship's cloak, like the Tribbles and Energy Dissipator cards, and have it state how many defense dice a ship gets while cloaked. And, have the ship disable their cloak, just like the Defiant, whenever it engages its cloaking device.

This would let each ship's defence dice be determined by its size and general agility when not cloaked, and still be able to give bonus dice to Romulans for their superior cloaks. As well as forcing cloaking ships to actually fight uncloaked on occasion.

The other "realistic" way to show how cloaks worked while fighting in Star Trek, would be to require ships to cloak during their attack round instead of during their activation step as an action. Meaning a ship could either attack or cloak in a round. It could still attack while cloaked, if it was already cloaked at the beginning of an attack round. Would get rid of the need to place a cloak marker on the base, before placing it on the table. And, would still reward higher skilled captains over lower skilled ones, by letting the higher skilled captain cloak first during an attack round.
 
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Ryan Caputo
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yea the firing but having the effect of cloaking goes against the very nature of cloaking. In that you must be out of cloak to fire. It would make sense to once you attack your shields are back up and no more cloak. That way it is used as it should be, to get better position (echos) and as defense (when an enemy has the superior position)
 
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Nicholas Bazzano
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It would just be more "accurate" with my second option. You can cloak or attack in a single round, but not both. And, it would really buff the Advanced Weapon Systems card, really earning those 5 points.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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In the original rules, when you cloaked you immediately cloaked and could not be target locked and rolled +4 dice after that.

Also as soon as you fired, you immediately uncloaked and lost your +4 defense dice and raised your shields.

The way the system worked, this favored low skill captains and they could cloak 1st before anyone had a chance to target lock and then fired last so they stayed cloaked the entire round. In order to better balance this, they had both actions last until the end of turn so the defender kept his dice the while turn, but also everyone had a chance to get a target lock.

Its not a perfect fix thematically, but it makes the game better.
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Ryan Caputo
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jmdt784 wrote:
In the original rules, when you cloaked you immediately cloaked and could not be target locked and rolled +4 dice after that.

Also as soon as you fired, you immediately uncloaked and lost your +4 defense dice and raised your shields.

The way the system worked, this favored low skill captains and they could cloak 1st before anyone had a chance to target lock and then fired last so they stayed cloaked the entire round. In order to better balance this, they had both actions last until the end of turn so the defender kept his dice the while turn, but also everyone had a chance to get a target lock.

Its not a perfect fix thematically, but it makes the game better.


Well you could make it; before attack phase cloaked ship choose attack or stay cloaked. Kind of a hybrid of the 2 rules old and new. Keep the new way for initiative, but the old way for better thematic balance.
 
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Nick Hawkins
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I'm happy with the way cloaking currently works, it's playable and isn't too far away from canon.

If you want to experiment with house rules why not adjust how target lock works? EG, give it an unlimited range but only allow it to be maintained whilst the target is in your forward arc? That way you could get a target lock at the start of the gameā€¦

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Kyle Segard
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jmdt784 wrote:

The way the system worked, this favored low skill captains and they could cloak 1st before anyone had a chance to target lock and then fired last so they stayed cloaked the entire round. In order to better balance this, they had both actions last until the end of turn so the defender kept his dice the while turn, but also everyone had a chance to get a target lock.


Wow, that would have been nice, and would make the third tier and overall low captain skills of the Romulans make sense. Seems like they fixed the overall mechanic to make it more balanced, but forgot to go back and give the Romulans some higher captain skills to compensate.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Bishop084 wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:

The way the system worked, this favored low skill captains and they could cloak 1st before anyone had a chance to target lock and then fired last so they stayed cloaked the entire round. In order to better balance this, they had both actions last until the end of turn so the defender kept his dice the while turn, but also everyone had a chance to get a target lock.


Wow, that would have been nice, and would make the third tier and overall low captain skills of the Romulans make sense. Seems like they fixed the overall mechanic to make it more balanced, but forgot to go back and give the Romulans some higher captain skills to compensate.


The Romulans captains are pretty well on par, they just don't have their Martok/Picard yet. Donatra, a global buffer is 6 like Gowron. Toreth a dice modifier is 7 like Koloth. Valdore and Mirok are lower, but not out of line with other officers out there.

The Vo should have an admiral who should be 6-7 and the Gal'Gathong was said by Andrew to have the Romulans' Picard. Give it time.

As to cloak, the old system would be terrible. You could never target lock a low skill captain effectively giving them a free advanced weapon systems. Also, cloak would be 100% useless with a 9 skill captain. You'd lose both benefits of target lock prevention from activating last and by firing 1st, you'd never gain advantage from the extra defense dice; it would be a completely wasted action.

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Bob Anderson
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As much as I gripe about cloak, I don't have a problem with it's defense.

What I have a problem with is the combination of high defense and high attacks.

I understand people point out that attacks direct to the hull and crits, but if I ship has the ability to cloak, there is very few reasons in the game for it NOT to cloak. So, cloaking becomes the optimal action for that ship.

What I'd like to see is cloak be a trade off of attack dice for defense dice, to allow you to position for the "optimal" attack, then you engage shields up like every instance in the canon.

Perhaps, attacking with primary weapons while cloaked gives a -4 attack dice. Maybe -4 is too harsh, maybe it should be -2.

Perhaps, attacking while cloaked should give an aux power token.

It's not the defense dice of cloak that's pissing me off. It's the combination of high attacks and high defense with virtually zero drawback that's pissing me off. I want a player to have to think about optimal action like a Dominion/Federation player needs to do.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Alyksandyr wrote:
I understand people point out that attacks direct to the hull and crits, but if I ship has the ability to cloak, there is very few reasons in the game for it NOT to cloak. So, cloaking becomes the optimal action for that ship.


The thing is, if your opponent's can target lock and you cloak, you are in for a world of hurt, especially if they are firing first. That's effectively how I won OP1, I kept going for the target lock with my Klingons over re-enabling cloak and just roasting people with 5-7 hits each shot versus whatever dice they roll. I got one where I rolled 7 attack with the TL out of 8, they got 1 evade on 5, and I one-shot a Negh'var. When I get 8 dice with a target lock, I'm looking at statistically 6 hits out of 8 versus statistically 2 evades. With that kind of firepower, you just won't last long.

I usually cloak coming into the 1st encounter, but after that rarely re-engage cloak unless I'm out of firing range.
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C. E. Freeman
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Alyksandyr wrote:
As much as I gripe about cloak, I don't have a problem with it's defense.

What I have a problem with is the combination of high defense and high attacks.

I understand people point out that attacks direct to the hull and crits, but if I ship has the ability to cloak, there is very few reasons in the game for it NOT to cloak. So, cloaking becomes the optimal action for that ship.

What I'd like to see is cloak be a trade off of attack dice for defense dice, to allow you to position for the "optimal" attack, then you engage shields up like every instance in the canon.

Perhaps, attacking with primary weapons while cloaked gives a -4 attack dice. Maybe -4 is too harsh, maybe it should be -2.

Perhaps, attacking while cloaked should give an aux power token.

It's not the defense dice of cloak that's pissing me off. It's the combination of high attacks and high defense with virtually zero drawback that's pissing me off. I want a player to have to think about optimal action like a Dominion/Federation player needs to do.


The best attack results come from a bit of damage buffing combined with improving the quality of your attacks. By this I mean target locks and battle station effects. When you try to maintain a perpetual cloak you lose out on the chance to improve the quality of your attacks unless you can find an extra action or hold your fire for a round.

Edit: Ninja'd
 
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Bob Anderson
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[q="Tacullu64"The best attack results come from a bit of damage buffing combined with improving the quality of your attacks. By this I mean target locks and battle station effects. When you try to maintain a perpetual cloak you lose out on the chance to improve the quality of your attacks unless you can find an extra action or hold your fire for a round.
[/q]

Without cross-factions, how is the cloaked Romulan bringing Battlestations to the table?

 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Alyksandyr wrote:
Without cross-factions, how is the cloaked Romulan bringing Battlestations to the table?


The Romulans have the tactical officer who is a 'dice quality enhancer' for their faction.

There is also Command Tokens.
 
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Bob Anderson
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jmdt784 wrote:
Alyksandyr wrote:
Without cross-factions, how is the cloaked Romulan bringing Battlestations to the table?


The Romulans have the tactical officer who is a 'dice quality enhancer' for their faction.

There is also Command Tokens.


The tactical officer is a great card indeed, but it requires the ability to get a target lock, which can't be done against a ship that is already cloaked. So that means the ship that HAS the tactical officer has to survive an initial salvo against a cloaked cannon, and then hope the opponent is not packing an advanced weapon system, and THEN can they use their "dice quality enchancer" ability.

And the command token requires either participation in OP2, or a visit to eBay. And even if you DID have one, the Command Token is only going to give ONE use of battlestations for the entire game.

Can ONE use of it swing the outcome of the battle? Sure it can. Can my ship's be blown out of the sky by a 7+ die attack before I get to use these wonderful toys? I'd say with about the same frequency in which these single use effects swing a battle.
 
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C. E. Freeman
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Alyksandyr wrote:
[q="Tacullu64"The best attack results come from a bit of damage buffing combined with improving the quality of your attacks. By this I mean target locks and battle station effects. When you try to maintain a perpetual cloak you lose out on the chance to improve the quality of your attacks unless you can find an extra action or hold your fire for a round.


Without cross-factions, how is the cloaked Romulan bringing Battlestations to the table?

[/q]
I was making a general statement. I was unaware cross faction wasn't an option, my mistake.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Alyksandyr wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
Alyksandyr wrote:
Without cross-factions, how is the cloaked Romulan bringing Battlestations to the table?


The Romulans have the tactical officer who is a 'dice quality enhancer' for their faction.

There is also Command Tokens.


The tactical officer is a great card indeed, but it requires the ability to get a target lock, which can't be done against a ship that is already cloaked. So that means the ship that HAS the tactical officer has to survive an initial salvo against a cloaked cannon, and then hope the opponent is not packing an advanced weapon system, and THEN can they use their "dice quality enchancer" ability.

And the command token requires either participation in OP2, or a visit to eBay. And even if you DID have one, the Command Token is only going to give ONE use of battlestations for the entire game.

Can ONE use of it swing the outcome of the battle? Sure it can. Can my ship's be blown out of the sky by a 7+ die attack before I get to use these wonderful toys? I'd say with about the same frequency in which these single use effects swing a battle.


If you play it 'like a Romulan,' you get to range 3 for 7 dice, get evade tokens, and then skip your attack phases. Next turn you target lock to utilize the officer and still have cloak up to protect you. With this method I've rolled 5/5 and 6/6 quite a few times while glancing off a good number of hits. With any luck, you can effectively take down 2 ships with this method in the exchange.
 
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charles skrobis
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The big flaw with rule like this, is that is forgets the whole shield disabling required for cloaking. Given that the highest shields in the game are 4, this would take 1 or 2 shots before the ship can't cloak for the rest of the game.

So while I can understand why people want them to not be cloaked or to force more reasons to not cloak for a turn or 2, in 1 turn they can lose their shields, be unable to cloak, and have lost half their action bar leaving only the target lock and evade options.

So as it is now, it's actually the most balanced it can be. , to the point where I've seen good federation builds that have lined up against klingon builds take out the negh'var in the opening attack. (Battle stations and scan can be really powerful, and people like geordi la forge are massively under rated right now.)

Not the most sure what to do with cloak because adjusting it at current screws up a massive part of the game. I feel it's just better to build accordingly, cause while spock is good at hitting all around, geordi can make that cloaked ship re-roll its evade taking it from 1-2 evades to 0-1 evades while denying a defense die. And sisko is just massively powerful, cause when he works everything goes his way.
 
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Dan Dedeaux
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jmdt784 wrote:
swgod98 wrote:
I think the best fix is going to be starting the game over from scratch lol...not that I think there's a problem, per se...but, I would have liked to see ships with slightly higher stats. Say: 1 extra agility each (cloak only gives +3 though), 1 extra hull and shield each.

We already know attacks are going to hit. There's just a huge advantage going to the attacker in this game. But, these are starships. It would be nice to see epic fights (that aren't too drawn out), instead of having ships destroyed in 1 or 2 shots.


After playing 2 hour games of X-Wing where ships refuse to die, I'm glad this game plays out much quicker thanks to the low agility and higher attack.


With die rerolls, battlestations, and additional attack die modifiers, I don't think 1 extra agility, hull, and shield is going to double the game time.

In any case, I haven't thought it over very hard. I just don't like the one shot deaths I see.

 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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swgod98 wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
swgod98 wrote:
I think the best fix is going to be starting the game over from scratch lol...not that I think there's a problem, per se...but, I would have liked to see ships with slightly higher stats. Say: 1 extra agility each (cloak only gives +3 though), 1 extra hull and shield each.

We already know attacks are going to hit. There's just a huge advantage going to the attacker in this game. But, these are starships. It would be nice to see epic fights (that aren't too drawn out), instead of having ships destroyed in 1 or 2 shots.


After playing 2 hour games of X-Wing where ships refuse to die, I'm glad this game plays out much quicker thanks to the low agility and higher attack.


With die rerolls, battlestations, and additional attack die modifiers, I don't think 1 extra agility, hull, and shield is going to double the game time.

In any case, I haven't thought it over very hard. I just don't like the one shot deaths I see.



Its not just 1 additional agility. In X-Wing ships fire 2-3 attack and ships roll 2-3 defense. With lots of 2 attack at 3 agility and 3 attack at 3 agility, ships die much more slowly. On good defense rolls, ships can survive 4, 5, 6 etc. attack rolls.
 
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JT Payne
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All this griping over cloaking is nonesense. Play the game as it is, people around me have found ways to defeat the cloak and so have I. My son, who is an avid Federation player and will not play anything else, has learned to beat the living tar out of cloaked ships.

Cloaking is not OP.
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