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Subject: Hanabi Quiz rss

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ben small
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K see if you can spot the mistakes, and how big of a mistake they are, and your reasoning.

3 player game order Kevin, Gareth, Bob.

Kevin starts and tells Gareth he has 4x1, which happen to be blue, white, yellow, red.

Gareth plays the red 1.

Bob tells Kevin he has a 5.

Kevin tells Bob he has 2x2.

Gareth plays the yellow 1.

Bob can see that both Kevin and Gareth have only one 2 each, both white, so tells Gareth about his only 2.

Kevin is worried Gareth will play a 2, so tells Gareth about 3 white cards, which are 1,2,3. 2 of the cards he knew the number of.

Gareth plays his white 1.

Bob discards a card.

Kevin tells bob which of his 2's is blue.

Gareth plays his white 2.

Bob plays his other 2 which happens to be red.

Gareth holds on to the blue 1, until he gets more information.
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Jeff Thornsen
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I don't see anything particularly bad here.

If I was Kevin, I wouldn't have given Gareth the white clue, since he still had 2 1's in his hand which were playable. I would assume that Gareth wouldn't play his 2 until he finished playing all his 1s. Giving him the color information now doesn't really help him, and he probably would have just played the 2 after playing all his 1's anyway.

If I was Kevin, I probably would have discarded here. Somebody already identified my 5, so it means any other card I throw away is a "safe" discard. Or maybe I would have given Bob the blue clue now to identify which of his 2's were playable.
 
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Jim Hansen
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The main mistake was that Bob should not have told Gareth about his 2. It was not playable at the time and only created confusion. He should have waited until the white 1 was down.

Then, Kevin didn't need to tell Gareth about his white cards, assuming Gareth would keep playing his 1's.
 
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Al Washburn
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Gareth plays 2 yellow ones despite only having 1?

...but one thing I notice is Gareth's white 2 is protected by the 1s he's playing so I don't feel like it was time to freak out about the 2 white 2s and that clue could have waited.
 
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Al Washburn
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Also I don't think there is quite enough information here as we don't even know what cards are in the "discard spot" for each person…if it's the 2 white 2 that makes that clue slightly better, but still Gareth - in my opinion - should be playing those 1 until (and only if) he's called off by another clue. So you can give Gareth the "2" clue once his White 1 is played.
 
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ben small
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Woops , Gareth didn't really play 2 yellow 1's. Fixed with edit. I shouldn't have done this post at 2 am :-)

Nothing too important on any chopping block. Both white 2 are 2 or 3 cards deep.
 
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ben small
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Was hoping there would be more replies. Jeff was the only one I agree with, but didn't fully explain the reasons. Bob was really me, so made no mistakes at all Didn't put my name, hoping for more unbiased replies.

Me telling Gareth he has a 2 would be a terrible idea if it might be the same 2 as one of my own. Kevin and Gareth should realise that, and therefore Kevin works out he must have the white 2, and now feel safer about discarding his cards, and Gareth works out his must be the white 2, and holds it until he plays the rest of his 1's. Also no one had time to tell me more about my cards since my 2x2, so was definitely preferable to give a clue for a card to be played than risk discarding something useful yet, especially as I knew it was fine for Kevin to discard.

Kevin telling Gareth about his 3 white cards was a terrible crime, as it made Gareth assume he was being told this because his 4th 1 must not be playable, or he would be left to just play them on his own. Kevin thought he needed to make sure Gareth wouldn't play the white 2 that wasn't ready yet, but Kevin failed to think through the above paragraph.

I think we ended up with 23. Would have been 25 for sure if not for Kevins mistake that he still too stubborn to admit, and blames me for telling Gareth he had a 2.
 
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Jim Hansen
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smallman wrote:
I think we ended up with 23. Would have been 25 for sure if not for Kevins mistake that he still too stubborn to admit, and blames me for telling Gareth he had a 2.

Kevin's play was a mistake, no doubt. Although the mistake was a direct result of your clue, so I think you'd have to concede that your clue was ambiguous.

Kevin holding the other white 2 doesn't really influence the validity of the clue. He knew nothing about it and it was a safe discard. Gareth was set for at least two more plays, so the 2 wasn't at risk of being discarded. If you had waited until his 1's were down, there would be no confusion and you might be able to combo it better with another 2 that he or Kevin might draw in the meantime.
 
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Robb Effinger
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I started writing up a reply, but I realized part way through that it was impossible to say with conviction that actions taken were "right" or "mistakes". I know how I'd play it, with groups I'm used to playing with conventions we're all used to, but that is obviously different from how other groups with other conventions would have played it. And, actually, I don't even know how exactly I'd play it, since the conventions I'd use would depend somewhat on information I don't have. Anyway, minor spoilers follow, since I'm hinting at, alluding to, or describing conventions.

Spoiler (click to reveal)

I don't like the move of Bob giving a clue about the white 2. For one, as Bob, I'd be inclined to play one of the twos I was just told about. If I didn't think that was safe, I'd be likely to discard - There's no need to signal Garth yet about his white 2 - he's not in danger of discarding it if he keeps playing 1s, and it isn't playable. Since here's no urgency in signalling the 2, the likely reason for giving him the clue would be to tell him to stop playing his 1s, which I don't want him to do, so I am inclined not to give him any clues. This notion is reinforced if Gareth works out that he's being told about his white 2, by the logic of "Bob can only tell me about 2s he knows he isn't holding" - since Bob had the option of who to tell about the white 2, he probably chose me so that I'd stop playing.

Because Bob's 2s aren't playable, yet, I'd probably discard in Kevin's position. Alternatively, if I think Bob is going to discard one two on his turn, I'd give him a color clue about that two. If I don't think I could do that without him discarding the other two, I'd probably suck it up and discard, and maybe hope that Gareth clues the twos instead of playing, hopefully indicating that the twos aren't playable yet.

I think in Kevin's shoes I'd re-clue the 1s instead of cluing color on the twos, to indicate that Gareth should keep playing the ones. Although I'd possibly clue the white cards, since the white 3 also gets clued, and hope I could convince Gareth to play the blue 1 later, since the blue 2 is in Bob's hand.



But ya. Really depends on the conventions your group is using.
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Sean McCarthy
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smallman wrote:
K see if you can spot the mistakes, and how big of a mistake they are, and your reasoning.

It's impossible to say what is a "mistake" given that I don't know what assumptions your group has. It's also impossible because I don't know what peoples' hands are. I only know the cards you told about but not where they are in the hand or what else is there. But I can try to give some comments.


Quote:
3 player game order Kevin, Gareth, Bob.

Kevin starts and tells Gareth he has 4x1, which happen to be blue, white, yellow, red.

This is obviously very good. IMO no one should tell Gareth anything further until he has played all of them.


Quote:
Gareth plays the red 1.

Yup. Gareth knows he has 3-4 cards to play so he had better start immediately and only do a different action if it's an emergency.


Quote:
Bob tells Kevin he has a 5.

I believe that Kevin has no playable cards here, and Bob shouldn't be telling Gareth anything. So this seems like the best move even though it's pretty lame. I wouldn't discard on turn 1.


Quote:
Kevin tells Bob he has 2x2.

IMO Kevin should only give this clue if both of the corresponding 1s are in play, or if one of them is in play and the second is due to be in play by the time the 2nd 2 needs to be played. It is important that the 2s be in the correct order. My group assumes given no other evidence that cards should be played newest to oldest, so this is a viable clue for us if the red 2 were newer and Gareth's blue 1 were due to be played in time for the blue 2.

If the ambition of the clue is not to play both of the 2s, it would be preferable IMO to clue only the playable one by color.

Quote:
Gareth plays the yellow 1.

Sounds good.


Quote:
Bob can see that both Kevin and Gareth have only one 2 each, both white, so tells Gareth about his only 2.

This seems bad in a few ways. First of all if I am Bob, I know I have 2 playable cards and I will start playing them. But I understand you are not playing with that assumption. In this case though you should tell Kevin about his 2, not Gareth. Gareth still has 2 cards to play and Kevin has none.

There is also another option here if Gareth's white 2 and 3 are in the correct order. Simply wait for him to finish playing his 1s and then tell him about his white cards, spending only a single clue for both of them. In this case, the best option for the current turn is to discard.


Quote:
Kevin is worried Gareth will play a 2, so tells Gareth about 3 white cards, which are 1,2,3. 2 of the cards he knew the number of.

This seems like a good save to me given the circumstances. Telling Gareth about his 2 indicated that his remaining 1s were unplayable. (Otherwise why give the clue? - waiting would be superior.) Gareth is now due to play his 2 and strike, and may not play either of the other 1s without further prompting due to confusion about what's in his hand and what is going on. Cluing the white cards will allow the play of three cards that wouldn't otherwise be (successfully) played! It's the second-most-efficient clue this game so far. I also believe that it should save Gareth from his current state of confusion by essentially telling him that the previous clue was a mistake.


Quote:
Gareth plays his white 1.

If I were Gareth here I would strongly consider playing my other (unknown) 1. Based on the earlier clue to 2 2s, Gareth should have a strong suspicion that he has the corresponding blue 1 in his own hand. Playing this 1 tells Bob that Bob is now good to play both his 2s.

However, the white 1 play is fine and does some good by being predictable, stabilizing the collective sense of what's going on after some confusion.


Quote:
Bob discards a card.

Seems good.


Quote:
Kevin tells bob which of his 2's is blue.

It would be better to tell Gareth about his blue 1 and let that speak for itself in terms of Bob playing 2s.


Quote:
Gareth plays his white 2.

It's possible to interpret Kevin's clue as a hint that the remaining 1 is blue, and it would be quite fair to attempt to play that 1. But like I said for Gareth's last turn this stable play is a reasonable choice.


Quote:
Bob plays his other 2 which happens to be red.

Seems like this is what Kevin wants Bob to do.


Quote:
Gareth holds on to the blue 1, until he gets more information.

Same comment as last time.
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Chris Berger
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Quote:
Kevin tells Bob he has 2x2.

IMO Kevin should only give this clue if both of the corresponding 1s are in play, or if one of them is in play and the second is due to be in play by the time the 2nd 2 needs to be played. It is important that the 2s be in the correct order. My group assumes given no other evidence that cards should be played newest to oldest, so this is a viable clue for us if the red 2 were newer and Gareth's blue 1 were due to be played in time for the blue 2.


I disagree. The way we play is that a one-card clue is generally "play this" unless it's obviously not playable. But a 2-card clue carries no such convention. Personally, unless I have a good reason to behave otherwise (we're running out of time, I have more information, or any card that isn't playable would be expendable and we're not in danger of losing on strikes), I will wait once around the table before playing from a 2-card clue - to give the clue giver opportunity to complete the information. If no more information comes, then I assume it's safe to play both cards.

As far as ordering conventions - I can see the value of it and don't see it as cheating like "the card I point to first is playable", but it seems like it might bite you as much as it would help.

Quote:
Quote:
Bob can see that both Kevin and Gareth have only one 2 each, both white, so tells Gareth about his only 2.


I think there's a general consensus that this is the major mistake of this sequence. So "I'm bob, he made no mistakes at all" is kind of at odds with the question. I guess it shows the problem with a Hanabi quiz especially when groups make different assumptions.
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James Rousselle
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smallman wrote:
K see if you can spot the mistakes, and how big of a mistake they are, and your reasoning.

3 player game order Kevin, Gareth, Bob.

Kevin starts and tells Gareth he has 4x1, which happen to be blue, white, yellow, red.

Gareth plays the red 1.

Bob tells Kevin he has a 5.

Kevin tells Bob he has 2x2.

Gareth plays the yellow 1.

Bob can see that both Kevin and Gareth have only one 2 each, both white, so tells Gareth about his only 2.

Kevin is worried Gareth will play a 2, so tells Gareth about 3 white cards, which are 1,2,3. 2 of the cards he knew the number of.

Gareth plays his white 1.

Bob discards a card.

Kevin tells bob which of his 2's is blue.

Gareth plays his white 2.

Bob plays his other 2 which happens to be red.

Gareth holds on to the blue 1, until he gets more information.


What is the sequence of cards in each player's hand? In our group, the card sequence is significant. This is especially true if I tell you something about your newest or oldest card.
 
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ben small
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smallman wrote:
Me telling Gareth he has a 2 would be a terrible idea if it might be the same 2 as one of my own. Kevin and Gareth should realise that, and therefore Kevin works out he must have the white 2, and now feel safer about discarding his cards, and Gareth works out his must be the white 2, and holds it until he plays the rest of his 1's. Also no one had time to tell me more about my cards since my 2x2, so was definitely preferable to give a clue for a card to be played than risk discarding something useful yet, especially as I knew it was fine for Kevin to discard.


I'm so amazed that noone here gets this. There is NO other logical reason for me to tell Gareth he has a 2 unless Kevin has that same 2. If we don't want Gareth to play his 1's we have to give him a colour clue. After the game Gareth advised he was always going to play his 1's before that 2, and didn't play his blue 1 due to Kevin telling him about the 3 whites when not needed. Gareth assumed Kevin wasn't making a mistake, and that this clue meant not to play the 4th 1.

With Gareth having such an awesome starting hand, we only need 1 clue per playable card ratio from here. Waiting to tell Gareth about his white 2 might get messed up if he draws one of the 2's I have in hand. So telling people about future playable cards with a 1:1 ratio should be taken at every opportunity, as all we have to do is avoid 2 clues per playable card ratio and we get 25. Other 2 cards to 1 clue ratio are likely to turn up anyway. Especially as we were due to have 4 x 1, and 3 x 2 played very early.

Our games club has maybe 30 people that like Hanabi, with various skill levels, but us 3 are the ones that achieve the best scores, and certainly should never assume a clue we give is a mistake that needs fixing. Not really any unique conventions for the group. I've posted my strat guide, which atleast those 2 players have read. The majority of us work on the principle of the most likely reason we are given a clue. Some are just better at working this out than others. The 3 of us can recognize a finess, but not many others in our group would. The only way me telling Gareth about a his 2 would be a mistake is if it went against a convention our group has, but it does not.

Also if I don't tell Gareth about his white 2 now, Kevin might on his next turn, which is nowhere near as useful. Ah well, back to the cloning lab I go.
 
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Jim Hansen
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I guess I see where you are coming from. You are just telling him he has a playable card that you know is safe to play because Kevin is holding the other white 2. And that clue is not meant to reflect the 1's in Gareth's hand. If that is how you guys play, then it's a good clue and Kevin's clue was the big mistake.

However, based on the conventions I typically use and see, giving any clue to Gareth in that situation is a signal that he should stop playing his 1's. If he is holding four 1's, odds are they won't all be playable, so he is waiting for a cue to know when to stop playing them. And especially giving a 2 clue would imply that he should play the 2 next instead of the 1's.

I think Kevin assumed the convention from the 2nd paragraph while you assumed the convention from the 1st paragraph. So it depends on how your group normally plays to say where the mistake was.
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Sean McCarthy
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smallman wrote:
I'm so amazed that no one here gets this.


I get it. But reasoning goes out the window when someone makes a mistake. Here's how I'd think about it from the perspective of Gareth:

OK, he's telling me a clue. Either the clue is a mistake or he's telling me about a white 2, which he can know he doesn't have because Kevin has the other white 2. But if it were a white 2 it would have been strictly better to tell Kevin about his white 2 because I still have playable cards and he doesn't; or he should have waited to tell anyone about their white 2 until I finish playing my 1s. So aha! My remaining 1s are not playable. But if they're not playable, then none of us have a white 1 so the white 2 is also not playable. (If I had the white 1 separately from the 1s I've been clued about, Bob would have clued my white cards and I would have played 1 and 2 in the correct order, since the 1 would have to be new.) I can't think of any good reason to give me this clue about my 2 regardless of the contents of my hand - there is a better play in each case - so it was a mistake (or I am missing something). Since it's definitely a mistake, my earlier reasoning that the clue is either a mistake or a white 2 does not imply that my 2 is a white 2. (Or if I'm missing something, then my reasoning may be faulty.) All I can assume is that the clue is a mistake (or I am making a mistake) and that I have a 2. Since a mistake was made I will try to be as predictable as possible so we can get back on track. If Kevin does not clarify things on his turn I will play the 2.
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Jim Hansen
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Let's say Gareth's 1's were red, yellow, red, yellow. He has already played one of each. What clue would you give to signal to stop playing his 1's? How would Gareth differentiate between that situation and this situation?
 
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Gareth Adam
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I was told that I had the four 1's, I'm going to play them no matter what unless I'm given the clue where one of my 1's is yellow and another card I drew. This would make me assume I've drawn the yellow 2.

Because the amount of times I've gotten a similar clue with our group make me assume that.
 
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Jim Hansen
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Drextd wrote:
I was told that I had the four 1's, I'm going to play them no matter what unless I'm given the clue where one of my 1's is yellow and another card I drew. This would make me assume I've drawn the yellow 2.

If your other two 1's were both unplayable (red and yellow, in that order) and you had no other red or yellow cards in your hand, what clue would they give to tell you to stop playing the 1's? Would they give a color clue about the red 1, and you would hold onto the yellow 1 until you got more information?

If your convention is clearly defined that you only use color clues to tell someone to stop playing, then Ben/Bob was right. If not, the 2 clue is a mistake.
 
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I had four different coloured 4's, It would be a waste of clue to tell me that I had a different coloured card because I would just play the 1's straight after each other.

That's why telling me about 2 yellow cards was a mistake because I would assume it is also a playable card.
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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Jim is asking about an alternate scenario where your 4 ones were not all different colors.

If your opening hand was red1, yellow1, red1, yellow1, other.

After playing the first red1 and yellow1, what clue do you need to be given to tell you to not play either of those other 1s in your hand?
 
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ben small
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Teamjimby wrote:
Let's say Gareth's 1's were red, yellow, red, yellow. He has already played one of each. What clue would you give to signal to stop playing his 1's? How would Gareth differentiate between that situation and this situation?


Gareth already knows this can't be this situation, because after he played the first 1, he would have been given a colour clue to make sure he doesn't play the wrong one.
 
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Jim Hansen
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smallman wrote:
Teamjimby wrote:
Let's say Gareth's 1's were red, yellow, red, yellow. He has already played one of each. What clue would you give to signal to stop playing his 1's? How would Gareth differentiate between that situation and this situation?


Gareth already knows this can't be this situation, because after he played the first 1, he would have been given a colour clue to make sure he doesn't play the wrong one.

OK, so in my hypothetical scenario, you would have used a clue to tell him about his duplicate red 1 as soon as he played his first red 1? Then you would have told him about his duplicate yellow 1 as soon as he played his first yellow 1? That's not particularly efficient if he has no other red/yellow cards and can be misleading if he just drew another red or yellow card that is also unplayable.

But, if I understand correctly, that is your defined convention that precludes the 2 clue from implying anything about the 1's. That is not a convention I have seen before, but it would place the mistake on Kevin's play.
 
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Al Washburn
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Teamjimby wrote:
Let's say Gareth's 1's were red, yellow, red, yellow. He has already played one of each. What clue would you give to signal to stop playing his 1's? How would Gareth differentiate between that situation and this situation?


In that situation I'd try not to clue about the four 1s at all. I'd do my best to wait for him to discard one of the 1s and then clue him color-wise (if possible) about the other, it's true that you REALLY want to get those 1s out there but depending on the hands I could see I'd avoid that sort of clue if at all possible.

My group is starting to be good about realizing if you're not cluing them and you're giving weakish clues to other players that it's time for them to discard.
 
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ben small
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Teamjimby wrote:
smallman wrote:
Teamjimby wrote:
Let's say Gareth's 1's were red, yellow, red, yellow. He has already played one of each. What clue would you give to signal to stop playing his 1's? How would Gareth differentiate between that situation and this situation?


Gareth already knows this can't be this situation, because after he played the first 1, he would have been given a colour clue to make sure he doesn't play the wrong one.

OK, so in my hypothetical scenario, you would have used a clue to tell him about his duplicate red 1 as soon as he played his first red 1? Then you would have told him about his duplicate yellow 1 as soon as he played his first yellow 1? That's not particularly efficient if he has no other red/yellow cards and can be misleading if he just drew another red or yellow card that is also unplayable.

But, if I understand correctly, that is your defined convention that precludes the 2 clue from implying anything about the 1's. That is not a convention I have seen before, but it would place the mistake on Kevin's play.


Well in your scenario, I would tell him about his 2 yellow cards first, and give him a red clue later when he hopefully draws more red cards. Possibly even both of us give him colour clues if there is a danger he might risk playing the red 1, because he can see a blue 2, and wants to get the blue 1 on the table.

For your scenario if a 1 is on Gareth's chopping block at the start, i'd expect everyone to wait for Gareth to discard 1 before telling him about them. And would depend on how useful other players cards are, but once Gareth knows about his 1's, the next priority is making sure he only plays the correct 1's.

Playing cards you know are playable is always first priority, the biggest challenge to get 25 is the deck running out.
 
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Jim Hansen
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Alright, well it sounds like you and Gareth are on the same page so you made the right play. You should just clarify your conventions with Kevin.

By my conventions the 2 clue would have been a mistake, but it's impossible to judge other people's clues without knowing their conventions.
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