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Subject: Where does Ogre go from here? rss

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Michael Ptak
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We're at the eve of the 6th edition launch. The more I see the box, the more I want it, but I don't have the awesome disposable income I used to to just up and get it :\

So I wonder if there's a future for Ogre after this? Will there be general releases in the future for the base game and seperate expansions I can pick up on later as Ogre starts up again? Or is this Ogre's one-shot to acquire the game for the next decade? And what more can we expect afterward?

I'm going to be attending a local launch party this weekend, looking forward to it! I also have some Ogre miniatures I've squirreled away for years now, will probably bring them too
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Jake Rose
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Eventually SJGs will be selling a new edition of 'pocket OGRE', basically a reprint of the original. It won't have all the fancy components and I don't think GEV and the other expansions, but it is supposed to be pretty cheap.

Other than that and the miniatures I'm not sure what else to expect.
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Dan Blum
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Quote:
Where does Ogre go from here?


Towards the Command Post.
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Andrew Walters
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I'm hoping for a $50 Ogre in the Frag Gold Edition-sized box, but I could see a $30 Ogre produced like Awful Green Things. No way to tell for a few months. But the more we play and talk about Ogre the more likely there will be more editions.
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Stephen Rochelle
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My wholly-unofficial answer is that anything beyond what's been promised in the KS campaign (some expansion support for the new edition, a computer game, minis [that I think are more or less manufacture-on-demand]) is highly unlikely.

First, Phil and other SJG folks have all-but-sworn that no forseeable future reprints of the Designer's Edition are happening. It's too big, too expensive, and the immediate market is mostly saturated. So if you don't get this now, you won't be getting it later for less than exorbitant.

Next, Phil et al have likewise all-but-sworn that no mid-scale Ogre game is happening via SJG. Again, market saturation is the culprit, coupled with splitting the user base (as nothing mid-scale would be compatible with the coming DE-style Assault Packs, expansions, etc). Maybe if a third party stepped in with a sweet licensing deal such that SJG just cashed checks, but that also seems unlikely.

Next, Phil has also noted that Pocket Ogre, too, is a money-loser. It's going to be a limited release. It would have to have about the same markup as the big box (a factor of 4 or so) to be a sustainable product. That's also standing in the way of something like "Pocket GEV" as a theoretical concept -- what sells at $3 is a lot harder to move at $15.

Finally, the big problem with any future Ogre work is one of opportunity cost. Even if some plan to make Ogre profitable and sustainable emerges, it won't be as profitable or sustainable as Munchkin -- which means, from a company management standpoint, that it's still a money sink. They're supporting that money sink out of love, but love only goes so far (and won't pay for Car Wars).
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Kent Reuber
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I could imagine more maps being made. Ogre Battlefields had 4 maps.
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Philip Reed
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kentreuber wrote:
I could imagine more maps being made. Ogre Battlefields had 4 maps.


Two of the maps from that expansion are in ODE. A realistic price for an expansion that is only the remaining two maps would be $60 or $75. More if we start adding counters and stuff. More if it is packed in a box.
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Scott Ellis
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That matches my back-of-the-envelope thoughts on sustainable costs. Figure that each GEV map is essentially 2 quad-folded mounted maps, for a total of 8 segments. At $1/segment base cost, times 4 for distribution and retail markup, you get $32/map.
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Andrew Walters
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People keep bringing up the Battlefields maps, but even if we never get them the terrain overlays have tremendous potential. Not only do they give you a lot of combinations (you could probably re-create the other Battlefields maps if you wanted to), but they can be interactive. We pick a scenario, I pick a map and position some overlays, then you choose offense or defense. Or you could haggle: I'm playing defense, I position a terrain overlay or two, then you say "sure, but I get two extra GEVs" and we bargain from there. Maybe you're willing to give up a couple GEVs if we flood that marsh and make it clear water.

We are not going to be hurting for map variation. All the Battlefields maps were variations on a theme, anyway.
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Michael Ptak
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So parsing out the DE materials into smaller re-releases put out over time is not feasible? It's really this one-time-only $100 deal to get into the Ogre line of products?
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Stephen Rochelle
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For the foreseeable future, yes. IIRC, Phil has commented elsewhere that just Ogre, no extras, at DE scale would itself run somewhere in the $75 to $100 range.
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Norsehound wrote:
So parsing out the DE materials into smaller re-releases put out over time is not feasible? It's really this one-time-only $100 deal to get into the Ogre line of products?


My friend owns the KS edition and I got to help with the unpacking some. It is $100 but it could have easily been around $400, there's that much stuff in the box. Seriously.
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Philip Reed
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Norsehound wrote:
So parsing out the DE materials into smaller re-releases put out over time is not feasible? It's really this one-time-only $100 deal to get into the Ogre line of products?


That really doesn't work in the next few to several years. Regardless of how often we try to explain how underpriced ODE is any new Ogre material will be compared to ODE. And we just cannot price anything else for Ogre (or any game) in the same way. Steve said this was a gift . . . and it is one massive gift. The $100 price should actually be about $400 or more.

And the 12,000 total units produced is more copies than many games ever see made. In talking with several publishers runs of 5,000 or less are far more common. The games being shipped should cover significant demand for now.
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Thomas Koziatek
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Just curious, with the demand this game had/has and the one time print run, whats peoples thoughts on picking up 2 retail versions? The re-release of Space Hulk netted a pretty penny on resale after just a year.
A number of the online sellers have them pretty cheap, and I'm beginning to wonder if I should pad in another.

Note, I am going to add all of the 4.5K sheets to my box.
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Karl Gallagher
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lomn wrote:

Finally, the big problem with any future Ogre work is one of opportunity cost.

This may not be as big an issue as mutiny, flashbacks, employees waking up screaming from nightmares, and muttered comments that the flood was an omen. Seriously, that crew is run ragged.
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Jeremy Fridy
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I want Ogre Magi! Remember the rules for aircraft in the Ogre Book? They were the Ogre aircraft. They had ideas for naval units too.
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Ron A
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PhilReed wrote:
Steve said this was a gift...


THANK YOU Steve! THANK YOU Phil and everybody at SJG. I never bought Wacht Am Rhein or Highway to the Reich back in the day, couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger on DAK, but I DO have ODE, and it is easily the smartest wargame purchase I've ever made. Assuming you make your annual pilgrimage to SDCC (bring Steve this year, we can have an Ogre party in 15A), beer's on me.

PhilReed wrote:
. . .and it is one massive gift.


Given that we're talking about Ogre, was there any doubt as to size?
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Waspinator
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PhilReed wrote:
Norsehound wrote:
So parsing out the DE materials into smaller re-releases put out over time is not feasible? It's really this one-time-only $100 deal to get into the Ogre line of products?


That really doesn't work in the next few to several years. Regardless of how often we try to explain how underpriced ODE is any new Ogre material will be compared to ODE. And we just cannot price anything else for Ogre (or any game) in the same way. Steve said this was a gift . . . and it is one massive gift. The $100 price should actually be about $400 or more.

And the 12,000 total units produced is more copies than many games ever see made. In talking with several publishers runs of 5,000 or less are far more common. The games being shipped should cover significant demand for now.


Out of curiosity, how many accountants at SJG had "you're doing WHAT?" reactions when they heard about this project? laugh
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Philip Reed
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TheWaspinator wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many accountants at SJG had "you're doing WHAT?" reactions when they heard about this project? laugh


It is Steve's company and my job to execute projects and run things for Steve. Everyone supported the project and we went into it understanding it was designed as a giant gift. The end result is Steve now has the game he wanted and others also get to buy copies.
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Wayne Walker
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So, you guys are pretty convincing that the future of physical Ogre product is very limited. I haven't followed things very closely, but is a iOS or Steam version of Ogre being considered. It would be ideal for those of us that will trouble finding people to play IRL. And just think, no shipping!
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Darin Sunley
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12000 total units shipped being more than a lot of other games. Interesting.

ODE is frequently compared to Space Hulk. Similar vintage. Similar pent-up demand. Similar rerelease project with similar production values. Similar end-user cost. It /is/ pretty obvious from the timing, not to mention the other similarities, that SH may have helped plant the seed to do Ogre DE - as in "hey, they're doing this and it looks great. Let's do this, only even more awesome!"

The observation is made that Space Hulk's value appreciated suddenly and violently in the secondary market, and the prediction is that ODE will likewise.

This was virtually inevitable prior to the Kickstarter when ODE was looking at only 3000 units produced. I wonder if it's still the case?

Value in the secondary market is basically defined by figuring out how many people are chasing how many copies of the game. So the salient facts are the relative sizes of the games' fanbases, and the size of the print runs.

As awesome as Ogre is, always has been, and always will be, I suspect there are a lot more collectors chasing Space Marine merch than will be chasing Ogre.

The other main question to answer is: does anyone have even a vague idea of the size of the Space Hulk print run?

From these two pieces of info we can develop some idea of how hot the the post-shipping secondary market on Ogre may become.
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David Rock

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HeatDeath wrote:
It /is/ pretty obvious from the timing, not to mention the other similarities, that SH may have helped plant the seed to do Ogre DE - as in "hey, they're doing this and it looks great. Let's do this, only even more awesome!"


Yeah, except it's documented that SJG was looking into a 6th Ed of Ogre well before the 2009 publishing of Space Hulk. That timing is coincidental at best.
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John "Omega" Williams
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granitepenguin wrote:
HeatDeath wrote:
It /is/ pretty obvious from the timing, not to mention the other similarities, that SH may have helped plant the seed to do Ogre DE - as in "hey, they're doing this and it looks great. Let's do this, only even more awesome!" :D


Yeah, except it's documented that SJG was looking into a 6th Ed of Ogre well before the 2009 publishing of Space Hulk. That timing is coincidental at best.


That and GW made a massive profit off SH. Whereas SJG lost profit.
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Steve Duff
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Stealth7 wrote:
Just curious, with the demand this game had/has and the one time print run, whats peoples thoughts on picking up 2 retail versions? The re-release of Space Hulk netted a pretty penny on resale after just a year.


I think the profit potential here is pretty small. I believe there are literally thousands of copies being socked away for the future. I can't count the number of times I've read posts talking about receiving their three copies, etc.

I think it's going to take years and then some folks will make a small profit.

You and a few thousand other guys all have the same idea.
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Frank Müller
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I guess with the renaissance of the game and many thousands new fans over the world, you will have it easy to just produce more addons (ogre packs) with new counters, unit types and scenarios.

It may not so lucrative than producing the 100th munchkin variant but at least it is a diversification in income source in case the munchkin franchise goes downwards.
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