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Virgin Queen» Forums » Rules

Subject: Legal proposal or not ? rss

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Laurent Filion
France
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Hi !

I'd like to have your opinion about an annoucement during the diplomatic phase:
Ottoman: propose an alliance with HRE
Spain: propose a package (alliance with HRE, mariage between Anna and Don Carlos and 4merc form HRE to Spain) against 1 treasure IF Ottoman's proposal is refused.

The rule says:
Conditional announcements (i.e., ones where you place a
caveat on whether or not an agreement goes through based on
the diplomatic actions of powers coming after you in Impulse
Order) are not permitted in any form. [EXAMPLE: England
may not announce a deal where they grant 2 mercenaries to
France if France agrees to go to peace with the Ottoman.]

Is the Spanish proposal legal or not ?

Thx for your answers
 
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Ed Beach
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Answer: NOT Legal.

This is exactly a conditional announcement. Anytime the word "IF" is involved, it's probably not going to be legal.
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Laurent Filion
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Thx for the answer Ed.

I copy exact ottoman and spanish words from ACTS to be sure the situation I've described is the good one :

Ottoman: alliance with HRE

Spain to HRE:

Separately:
- Alliance with HRE.
- Mariage between Don Carlos and Anna of Saxony.
- HRE give me his 4 merc.


Few minutes later, Spain adds:
I give you my (good) treasure if you accept all my propositions and not Ottoman's one.
Under the rules, you don't have to follow my last condition. You can accept my treasure and Ottoman's alliance, but if you do it, it's knowingly that it's not my proposal.



Still not legal I guess ?

Edit: add of text "Under the rules... proposal" even if I guess it's not important.
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Kristian Thy
Denmark
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Together, we are the United Nations
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Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
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That's technically legal. Spain is acknowledging that HRE can take it all, but implicitly threatening HRE that if he does, there will be (non-binding) repercussions.
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MLeis
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This doesn't make much sense. If a person makes an illegal proposal (I give you my (good) treasure if you accept all my propositions and not Ottoman's one) then the other person does not get the right to accept just a part of it (the treasure).

However, I believe it is possible to rephrase Spain's letter so that it has the same meaning and is also according to the rules.

Spain to HRE:

Separately:
- Alliance with HRE.
- Mariage between Don Carlos and Anna of Saxony.
- HRE give me his 4 merc.

As a package:
- Alliance with HRE.
- Mariage between Don Carlos and Anna of Saxony.
- HRE give me his 4 merc.
- I give HRE a treasure.

P.S. The treasure is good.
P.P.S. Please don't accept Ottoman's offer.
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David Lesouef
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Fielmann wrote:
This doesn't make much sense. If a person makes an illegal proposal (I give you my (good) treasure if you accept all my propositions and not Ottoman's one) then the other person does not get the right to accept just a part of it (the treasure).


That's why i think:

"I give you my (good) treasure if you accept all my propositions and not Ottoman's one" alone, is an illegal proposal.

"I give you my (good) treasure if you accept all my propositions and not Ottoman's one. Under the rules, you don't have to follow my last condition. You can accept my treasure and Ottoman's alliance, but if you do it, it's knowingly that it's not my proposal" whole, is a legal proposal.
 
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Ed Beach
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Yes, you guys all understand the rules correctly. It sounds like this was fine this time because everyone was clear that by the rules BOTH proposals could be accepted.
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Laurent Filion
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Thx again for every answers.
So Judograal and I are allright now .
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Lawrence Hung
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Wan Chai
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You guys are creative as to how to bribe.....
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