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Subject: Dominion Fleet: DON'T DO IT! rss

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Penguin Bonaparte
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So first, my opponents were very good. I suspect that the times the Dominion fleets work out well for people, it's partly because everyone's still learning. Probably much like how the only reason to be killed by a muon token is not knowing what it does or forgetting that the enemy has it. I just got back from OP3, and desperately wanting the Jem'hadar attack ship to work I went with

Kraxon + Sar
JH + Polaron Beam + Luaran
JH + Polaron Beam + Danar
JH + Skill 1 Smarmy Vorta

Basically, the way the game is now, it's foolish not to confine yourself to a few big ships, the Negh'var, Vor'cha, Enterprise D, and Valdore. They all have such high attack values that when you add in the well-selected captains such as Donatra, Picard, and then the resources, you're immediately facing a minimum of 15 attack dice per turn, more like 18 on average. I didn't keep count. Even at range 3 ships are picked off one by one, you can't close in to use the polaron beam to effect. Taking out a ship would require basically two unevaded rolls, and a little bit of hull damage under shields isn't going to do a lot. In a practice yesterday I tried to get suicide attack to work, but because he knew it was there, my opponent just took longer moves, and also could have just tried to block that ship. You might think that a mix, with two Galors and two attack ships might work better, but experimenting there before didn't give a great result, so I tried this. At any rate, with the 1 fewer defense and 1 greater attack, it wouldn't have made a big difference or allowed me to take out another ship.

The other problem is what I was afraid of: low skill captains. Almost every turn someone got blown up before even being able to shoot.

I'd also hoped that maneuverability, action blocking, and the rest might help out here, but against a good opponent who knows to fly in formation and focus fire, you're just not going to be able to do enough damage while not focusing your own fire, and any one ship that gets in their arc is dead. Or maybe you spend half the match flying around the planet and hope that they forget to do a 180 maneuver.

The Gor'portas has the ability to get in one super amazing strike at range 1, but with the high-skill captains that'll probably be if it survives two turns of focused fire, which is unlikely.

So yeah, I wanted the Dominion to be good, or at least usable. Maybe one of these ships can be useful in a random fleet, but as a faction, just don't do it. Expensive out-of-faction captains could help, but the raw firepower will still be lacking, and at that point, why not just use the better ships? I'm really regretting picking up those Jem'hadar attack ships. It's not just about winning, and I've had fun being blown up before, and it was still fun hanging out with my group. But in two of the matches it was decided by the first enemy's round of shooting before I even got to go, so none of the good times came from actually playing the game.

 
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Steve Smith
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Sorry to hear about your experience. I hope to face the Jem'Hadar more so I can see them in action. The suicide attack does look especially powerful.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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The suicide could be really good, but it's hard to make it hit since you declare after moving your ship but only check for a hit after everyone has moved. I'd hoped to use that as an equalizer, but my practice match showed it would be really hard, unless I guess I was going up against a lower skill captain. And no one has lower skill captains than the Dominion. It would be kinda crazy to use Picard to be able use a suicide attack. But even then you're sacrificing a ship to get one attack of 8 dice, when other builds can just get you 8 dice from captain abilities.
 
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Evan
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What sort of ships were you up against? I was briefly very excited about putting Khan and Joachim on a polaron-equipped Jem'hadar ship, before realizing that it'd be all but useless in the current cloak-heavy meta.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Vor'cha, Negh'var, and Valdore were what did the killing. There was a Kronos One and a Praetus in there, which I think my last opponent mercifully let me kill, just for using the ships we'd bought.

I won one match on points against a very new player who had some coaching. We intervened and got him up to a full squad when he tried to play with 87 on 2 ships. He was pretty happy to learn how he could use the target lock on the Gor Portas though! My Danar died a fiery death shortly thereafter, but I did pretty well there just because I knew the movements better and could action block him so there were no more torpedoes.
 
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Nicholas Bazzano
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Everyone knows they're going to be seeing cloaked ships, with a few Fed exceptions. So, knowing this going in, I have to wonder why I'm not seeing more Antiproton Scans on Dominion list.

It specifically targets cloaked ships (and ships missing shields), giving a +1 attack die bonus, while reducing their defence by -1 die thanks to your scan action. Meaning, your Galor are rolling 5 dice versus 5 for Romulans and 4 for Klingons. And, your Breen and Jem'hadar are rolling 4 v 5/4.

And yet, no one seems to use them. Instead, I just keep seeing thread after thread telling us to not bother with the Dominion, because they can't win.
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Penguin Bonaparte
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+1 die at a 4 point cost for when they're only cloaked part of the time, at the cost of an evade for the action, when you've got multiple 6-8 dice attacks coming in on 1 agility doesn't do a whole lot. The cloaks cost me a couple of hits, but enough to bust through the shields, and I would have lost the Kraxon at least a turn earlier in both those matches if I hadn't taken evades iirc. Most of those attacks got full or partial re-rolls with target locks as well. Maybe I could have done a little more damage if I'd target-locked, at least at the first combat turn.
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Troy Westblade
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Sorry to the OP but I'm determined to give it a go this week regardless.

Here's what I'm planning to run:

Gor Portas 26
Thot Gor (6) 4
Breen Aide 2
Energy Dissipator 5 -1
Photon Torpedoes 5 -1
Ship Total: 40pts

Kraxon 26
Gul Danar (3) 2
Antiproton Scan 4
Ship Total: 32

5th Wing Patrol Ship 22
Sar (2) 1
Ship Total: 23

Res: Elite Attack Dice

Total: 100

I have built this deliberately to be able to deal with cloaked ships. The Kraxon is especially a cloak-killer with the AntiProton Scan and Gul Danar to help hit.

The Gor Portas should be able to brutalize any ship if I can pull off the Energy Dissipator, but otherwise will still be great between the Aide and the Photon Torpedoes

Sar should offset the downside of using the Patrol Ships action so that it can get a decent number of attack dice going as a back up attacker.

I tried squeeze in a second Jem Hadar fighter but it didn't seem worth it. All the upgrades I've included look too important to me (except maybe the ED and Photons, but they are just fun to try and pull off).
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Chris Cromer

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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
So first, my opponents were very good. I suspect that the times the Dominion fleets work out well for people, it's partly because everyone's still learning. Probably much like how the only reason to be killed by a muon token is not knowing what it does or forgetting that the enemy has it. I just got back from OP3, and desperately wanting the Jem'hadar attack ship to work I went with

Kraxon + Sar
JH + Polaron Beam + Luaran
JH + Polaron Beam + Danar
JH + Skill 1 Smarmy Vorta

Basically, the way the game is now, it's foolish not to confine yourself to a few big ships, the Negh'var, Vor'cha, Enterprise D, and Valdore. They all have such high attack values that when you add in the well-selected captains such as Donatra, Picard, and then the resources, you're immediately facing a minimum of 15 attack dice per turn, more like 18 on average. I didn't keep count. Even at range 3 ships are picked off one by one, you can't close in to use the polaron beam to effect. Taking out a ship would require basically two unevaded rolls, and a little bit of hull damage under shields isn't going to do a lot. In a practice yesterday I tried to get suicide attack to work, but because he knew it was there, my opponent just took longer moves, and also could have just tried to block that ship. You might think that a mix, with two Galors and two attack ships might work better, but experimenting there before didn't give a great result, so I tried this. At any rate, with the 1 fewer defense and 1 greater attack, it wouldn't have made a big difference or allowed me to take out another ship.

The other problem is what I was afraid of: low skill captains. Almost every turn someone got blown up before even being able to shoot.

I'd also hoped that maneuverability, action blocking, and the rest might help out here, but against a good opponent who knows to fly in formation and focus fire, you're just not going to be able to do enough damage while not focusing your own fire, and any one ship that gets in their arc is dead. Or maybe you spend half the match flying around the planet and hope that they forget to do a 180 maneuver.

The Gor'portas has the ability to get in one super amazing strike at range 1, but with the high-skill captains that'll probably be if it survives two turns of focused fire, which is unlikely.

So yeah, I wanted the Dominion to be good, or at least usable. Maybe one of these ships can be useful in a random fleet, but as a faction, just don't do it. Expensive out-of-faction captains could help, but the raw firepower will still be lacking, and at that point, why not just use the better ships? I'm really regretting picking up those Jem'hadar attack ships. It's not just about winning, and I've had fun being blown up before, and it was still fun hanging out with my group. But in two of the matches it was decided by the first enemy's round of shooting before I even got to go, so none of the good times came from actually playing the game.



I posted this exact list and I've done all right with it. I did make some tweaks though. At ten points and with the cloak heavy choices so far I feel that the 10 points taken by the polaron beams could really be better spent elsewhere. The kraxon downright requires someone for shield regen. My choice is usually konmel as you can still shoot but if you are really focusing the kraxon on soaking up damage then Scotty or the new obrien might be a better choice. This paired with a focus on battle stations and target locks for the patrol ships have proven to be competitive for me. Once you ditch the polaron beams I'm thinking Terrell might also be a good edition. I'll update after I test it
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Penguin Bonaparte
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CCR0224: What kind of opponents have you had and what sort of damage output do they have? I missed one chance I think to soak some damage onto the Kraxon, but its shields died pretty quickly and I was just trying to keep it alive on its own.

Wakandaman: hope it goes well! The Gor Portas at least can work in as a torpedo boat and the energy dissipator can sometimes make a great hail Mary.

The most devastating opponent had the pips, Picard on the Negh'var, Donatra on the Valdore, and Nu'Daq(?) on Kronos One and gave them all target locks. One of my polaron ships was taken out at range 3 in the first exchange.
 
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Nicholas Bazzano
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Maybe it's different were you guys all play, but here abouts cloaked ships stay cloaked. And, almost everyone uses cloaked ships.

So, the antiproton scan at 4 points is useful versus cloaks, whereas the polaron beam is 5 wasted points as the shields are already down, and you're losing one attack die versus a cloaked ship (or ship with no shields). Plus, for the Faction purist amongst us, the antiproton scan works with Omet'iklan, while the polaron beam does not. And, the antiproton scan works out to range 3, while the polaron forces you to close to range 2 at least.

So, against a Romulan ship, I can sit at range 3, firing 4 attack dice versus his 6 defense dice (after scan). And, roll 3 defence dice versus his 3-4 attack dice, while he waste actions recloaking, or not be shot at while I dance around outside of 2 range Plasma Torp death. Or, I can rush in to range 1-2, probably get blasted first by those 3-4 or 4-5 attack dice (or 5 with a reroll), while rolling 2 defense dice, and hope I survive long enough to fire off a closing shot against a cloaked ship at 3 versus 6. All while having the privilege of paying an extra point for the polaron beam.
 
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Troy Westblade
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Wakandaman: hope it goes well! The Gor Portas at least can work in as a torpedo boat and the energy dissipator can sometimes make a great hail Mary.


Thanks I'll let you know. I'm not too concerned about winning but would still like to do reasonably well.

I had thought about the Polaron Beams, but just like CCR0224 decided to drop it in favour of giving myself a better shot against Cloaked ships. Would've liked to include OmetiKlan as well somewhere, but it came down to either him or the Elite Attack Dice, and the Elite dice is better due to it's versatility (can be used for any ship) and chance of better hits like more Crits and the Double Hit.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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coastcityo wrote:
Maybe it's different were you guys all play, but here abouts cloaked ships stay cloaked. And, almost everyone uses cloaked ships.


I haven't seen a lot of people re-cloak, but focus on following up the alpha strike. Once you've done that much damage with higher defense in the first attack it seems to go more towards pushing your advantage with target locks, since a good second attack can take out a lower skill captain before he shoots. We have also had a lot of cloaked ships die horrible deaths. I remember my Defiant in OP2 getting either a total whiff or maybe just 1 evade, and getting one-shotted. I totally forgot that I had the reroll from winning the previous too. The exception was using the Khazara with the advanced weapon system, which was pretty cool.

WakandaMan wrote:
Thanks I'll let you know. I'm not too concerned about winning but would still like to do reasonably well.


Yeah, I wasn't expecting mine to be a killer fleet that would dominate at all, but deluded myself into thinking I'd have a chance. I think I could have maybe taken a little more down if there hadn't been a planet so I could come from two sides and vary my movement a bit more, but wouldn't have been game winning I don't think.
 
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Wayne Stewart
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Okay, I get that right now the Dominion are a bit skimpy on their ability to throw their weight around. But looking at what is coming I note that some pretty good expansions are coming including a Cardassian and a Jem'Hadar battlecruiser. In the meantime, that means I play on, especially until my budget says I can buy more ships. So, how does this list look. It is similar to others, but anyway...

Gor Portos + Toth Gor = 40 pts
Breen Aide, Energy Dissipator, Photon Torpedo

5th Wing Patrol Ship + Sar = 30 pts
Phased Polaron Beam, Long Range Tachyon Scan

Jem'Hadar Generic + Dominion Captain = 25 pts
Suicide Attack

Command Tokens

I am trying to make use of the strengths of the faction and the cool stuff. I am not so worried about winning as I am about having fun. If I can get off the Suicide Attack, that would be cool for 25 points lost. In the meantime, at least the other two ships have halfway decent evade and can shoot at max range to harass. Hopefully, the cloakers will de-cloak in order to shoot the Generic before it blows up in their face giving me an opportunity to kick them in their soft spot.

Let me know what you all think.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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The Gor Portas with the energy dissipator can do some cool stuff, but I think those Jem'hadar ships are going to get blasted immediately. I lost one at range 3 to an alpha strike and another one the next turn. If people in your group aren't really min-maxing for whatever reason, it might stand a chance, but it seems unlikely.

Suicide Attack is going to make that one a big target and with him moving first it's going to be really hard to pull off.

The polaron beam is great, but if you've only got one you'll probably need two shots with it, requiring you to re-enable, in order to take out a ship without just having to eat through its shields anyway, at which point you're better served by the base attack.

You've got a combined base attack of 9 and lower hull than some of the standard Klingon lists I've been seeing and used, 2 Vor'cha and a Negh'var, which have 15 attack. Even at range 3, the 3 evade is going to only cancel 9 of those dice, and that's before the added dice abilities they'll probably be using. If they've got target locks or other abilities, it's going to be a fairly effective attack too. Think about how one ship is going to survive 15 dice when it's got 9 evade and the remaining 6 are enough to one-shot it. Add to that the fact that they'll shoot before any of your captains. Assuming they get and use Kronos 1, that's still a 4 attack, has cloak, and isn't too much lower than the Galor.

At the moment I think the Gor Portas and 2 Galors is the only viable Dominion squad and it's still out-matched by the opposition.

 
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Paul Grindrod
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Not to mention that the Dominion really suffer from restricted upgrade The ED is +5 points outside of Breen ships, the Polaron Beam is +5 off Jem'Hadar. And the Jem'Hadar crew upgrades are all ship restricted. Which seems ridiculous with the amount of out-of-faction Picard/Sulus around.
 
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Waspinator
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Yeah, the Dominion suffers from being basically three factions mashed together.
 
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Chris Cromer

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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
CCR0224: What kind of opponents have you had and what sort of damage output do they have? I missed one chance I think to soak some damage onto the Kraxon, but its shields died pretty quickly and I was just trying to keep it alive on its own.


I've played that list or a derivation against a ch'tang, negh'var, mahtha combo and I think that had matron and gowron. I also played in the op3 scenario against 4 Klingon d-7/k'tinga and lastly I played against a valdore Khabzara list that was very decked out.

In each encounter the dominion did very well. I think I lost maybe one patrol ship in the first and second game with no casualties in the third. I did roll very well in all three games but mostly they just came down to grinding. It took me a long time to beat down the second two fleets but eventually they fell.

The real strength of the list is the kraxons ability. Originally, I built my list faction pure so I had to just try to keep the kraxon up which was hard but now that I've adjusted it and added mirok and konmel it can regen 2 shields or a shield and a hull each turn. Sure it can still get alpha stroked but I doubt it considering it can take 8 points of damage. I also added Terrell to one of the patrol ships to boost agility rolls. I haven't played the list with the adjustments but I think I might try it this weekend in my op3 event. I'll let you know how it does...
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Scott Kelly
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Dominion at the very least needs to use out-of-faction captains.

I put together a MOSTLY Dominion fleet to attempt to take advantage of their unique abilities. So you still have the flavor of each individual Dominion ship, but it's a heck of a lot more competitive with a couple decent captains and an Elite Talent:

Kraxon (26)
GenKhan (4)
Secondary Shield Emitters (3 + 1) (to repair shields for Counter Attack)
Counter Attack (3) (to use with the Kraxon damage-transferring ability)

Gor Portas (26)
Donatra (4 + 1)
Photon Torpedoes (5)

5th Wing Patrol Ship (22)
Luaran (2)
Omet'iklan (5-2)
* 5th Wing's ability + Donatra gets the Primary Weapon up to 5 attack die per attack. Omet'iklan automatically converts 1 die to a hit. If a regular attack die puts you around a 50% chance for a hit or critical, a guaranteed hit is the equivalent of rolling 2 extra die a turn. In an out-of-the-box type comparison, that's the equivalent of 7 (5 + "quasi 2" to get the 1 hit) attack die a turn.
 
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Scott Kelly
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JFYI, in a month the Kraxon will now be able to cloak for 4 SP.

http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2013/11/13/star-trek-attack-win...
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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I see a lot of 2 and 3 Keldon fleets in the somewhat near future.

5 dice for 26 points is fantastic, especially with a 180 arc. Damage will no longer be a problem for the Dominion.
 
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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drscottkelly wrote:
JFYI, in a month the Kraxon will now be able to cloak for 4 SP.

http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2013/11/13/star-trek-attack-win...


The Kraxon is a Galor-Class vessel. The cloak only works on Keldon-Class for the listed price.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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Quote:
JFYI, in a month the Kraxon will now be able to cloak for 4 SP.


Unfortunately it'll cost 9 as the cloaking device is +5 on non-Keldon class ships.

Plus if you cloak you lose the ability to pull hit's onto the Kraxon's shields as they are down.

Ninja'd on the first bit ninja
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Does not stop you from running 3 cloaked Keldons though. You can cloak 3 and still have 14 points left to play with.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Wow, it would have been a great first wave release, but the Keldon actually answers the problems with the Dominion and it will be a viable faction soon! Ok, yeah, now I've got these useless Jem'hadar attack ships, but one at least could support a fleet with these guys in it, or a 2 Keldon + Kraxon fleet would work well too. Dukat's low on the firing order for the top squads, but ahead of Donatra and an amazing ability. I'm kind of blown away it actually got the 5 attack it needed. Thanks guys! thumbsup
 
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