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Subject: Clone of Tokyo rss

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Tom Grimshaw
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It might just be me, but I've played a few games of King of Tokyo now (all highly enjoyable I might add) and find myself at a loss as to why I'd actually buy this game (it's a friends copy I've been playing with).

As I say I like it (which arguably should be reason enough), but I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer.

The D6: Nothing too special here. D6 already do 1, 2 and, 3, so it's simply a matter of allocating the Energy, Claw, and Heal to the remaining three sides (a small look-up card, if that).

The Energy Cubes: Beads, coins, M&M's.. So many things that you can substitute here.

The Monster Standees: This is where you can get creative. The major (only real) limitation of the real deal is that due to copyright issues no actual Kaiju can be named (Godzilla, Mothra, etc). If you're making your own copy that'll never see the light of day outside of your gaming group, this isn't really an issue!

So find a stock photo of your favorite king of monsters, print it out on to card stock in such a way that it can be stood up (so many ways of doing this too) and, you're good to go.

Monster Cards: Same stock art, a couple of pin wheels and well placed slots and you're done.. A D10 and a D20 if you can't be bothered does much the same.

Tokyo / Tokyo Bay: One piece of card, with two distinctly marked areas (decorate to taste).

The Cards: Probably the only part of a home-brew project that requires any real effort, but if you've played a few games and look up your chosen monsters on the Internet filling these out shouldn't prove too taxing.

I'd say start with creating X "Evolution" powers appropriate to each monster to form their personal decks (where X is equal to however many is normally in a personal stack of Evolution Cards. Damned if I know off of the top of my head). Duplicate these for the shared stack, and assign costs to them. Add a few one-shots, such as buildings you might smash or, groups that may retaliate against your Kaiju and you're done!

Now I'm not suggesting that you all go and make you're own sets (it's not the most expensive of games), but I did want to point out just how easy it would be. Which is my personal justification for not buying this game (there's nothing in the box I can't make at home, or POD via Artscow if I felt so inclined).
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Jupklass Jupklass2
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90% ofthe games can be done by your self....
Dont get the point here
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skrebs
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Right, I'd never buy Magic cards since I could just look them up and Artscow them. Or any card game. Or most eurogames since they're mostly cubes, cards, and an easily duplicated board.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Value my time and the rights of the designer too much to even think of doing this. I'd rather play games than clone them.
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The cards are what really make the game.

You could make pretty much any game with some bits and a printer. It won't look as nice and will lack all the cools art, and you'll spend far more on your time than you would if you worked a job for those hours.

Just buy the game if you like it, give something back to the people who designed it so that they can design more like it.
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Stephen Cooper
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For me half the game is presentation. How everything looks and pulls the game together. I play games like claustrophobia and Mansions of madness and relic runners because they are fun and the items they have in game pull me in/. Of course i could make relic runners myself but something about the production feels nice. I have KOT as well and even though I personally don't care for it everyone I have introduced it to loves it and if I had some self made jank it wouldn't have the same lasting effect IMO
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Justus
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Yeah, been there done that.

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Justus
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Cartomancer wrote:
The Cards: Probably the only part of a home-brew project that requires any real effort, but if you've played a few games and look up your chosen monsters on the Internet filling these out shouldn't prove too taxing.


This isn't that hard. Just print one of the spreadsheets of the card list and let them be randomly selected by die roll.

Quote:
Now I'm not suggesting that you all go and make you're own sets (it's not the most expensive of games), but I did want to point out just how easy it would be. Which is my personal justification for not buying this game (there's nothing in the box I can't make at home, or POD via Artscow if I felt so inclined).


That said the amount of effort would far outweigh the cost of actually purchasing the game. And the physical production of this game IS excellent. I'm be surprised if you could come up with anything nearly as nice without spend 5X the amount of effort.

I've done my share of DIY's so I don't have any ethical issue with it, but if you're gonna do a DIY, I'd say at least treat yourself and come up with a new distinctive theme.
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Michael Nerman
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When I first saw this game I thought the same thing, but after a month of not getting around to it, I just bought the game.

The bits really are nice and add a lot to the game.

On the other hand, did someone mention Magic?... Screw buying booster packs or individual $10 (or more) cards!
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Tom Grimshaw
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louper wrote:
If you value your time, then you spend the $28 (in the USA, anyway) to buy it and move on. If you can buy materials, design all the cards, and get it all made for less than $28 after taking into account the hours you'll spend doing the cards alone, well, be my guest.


I do value my time, but being unemployed at the moment I probably have more of it to go around than others might. It's also £30 over here and, not $28. So there is a reasonable mark-up on it comparatively.. Then there are the two expansions which are about £12 a pop.

So being unemployed and facing a price-tag of £54 or there abouts, a big part of me personally would consider this a worthwhile enterprise (as I own a printer loaded with plenty of toner, and have a couple of packs of cardstock just gathering dust). That's just me though, and I did make it clear that I wasn't suggesting that this was a viable course of action for everyone. It just struck me that the ease with which this game in particular could be reproduced is amazing.

I do however also take on board your point that a lot of games could easily be reproduced if you were so inclined.
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Tom Grimshaw
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krzykoopa wrote:
For me half the game is presentation. How everything looks and pulls the game together. I play games like claustrophobia and Mansions of madness and relic runners because they are fun and the items they have in game pull me in/. Of course i could make relic runners myself but something about the production feels nice. I have KOT as well and even though I personally don't care for it everyone I have introduced it to loves it and if I had some self made jank it wouldn't have the same lasting effect IMO


AS may be the case, but I really don't think that the aesthetics of a game count for more than the playability. KOT is in fairness very nicely done, but it's not the art on the cards that keeps me playing it.
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Tom Grimshaw
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aaarg_ink wrote:
I've done my share of DIY's so I don't have any ethical issue with it, but if you're gonna do a DIY, I'd say at least treat yourself and come up with a new distinctive theme.


I was actually tempted to do just this, but as I don't already own a Kaiju themed game I decided that if I do ever decide to embark upon this project, I wouldn't stray too far away from the original idea other than maybe switching in the monsters from the movies.
 
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László Horváth
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Cartomancer wrote:
... I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer....


The design, the Intellectual Property of the people who worked on it is in the box, that You cannot reproduce.

I wonder what You think about IP protection, as the "Game Designer" badge is under Your name.
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Tom Grimshaw
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horlaci wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
... I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer....


The design, the Intellectual Property of the people who worked on it is in the box, that You cannot reproduce.

I wonder what You think about IP protection, as the "Game Designer" badge is under Your name.


Well as I was changing the design in my given example(not using the art, not proposing to share the project, just offering my insight that there is very little in the box that you couldn't do yourself) I don't really think it's an issue.

As for IP, the designers here borrowed upon the IP of others in order to create this game.. Y'know, because they didn't invent Godzilla, but they were more than happy to clone him for their game. Beyond that, you can't copyright game mechanics, so no foul there either.

So all in all, I think you've missed the point of the OP and taken offense where non was meant, but if you truly want my opinion on IP as a Game Designer, I'd say it's a myth. It's a good idea, but virtually impossible to enforce. I speak from experience here.
 
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What I've found rewarding in my experience is hand drawing my games. For example, I hated the art to Middle Kingdom so I made my own hand drawn set. Nothing spectacular but I think it's a lot prettier than the published version.

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Tom Grimshaw
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aaarg_ink wrote:
What I've found rewarding in my experience is hand drawing my games. For example, I hated the art to Middle Kingdom so I made my own hand drawn set. Nothing spectacular but I think it's a lot prettier than the published version.



If you've got the talent, means and, reason to do something, I say go for it!
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Cartomancer wrote:
horlaci wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
... I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer....


The design, the Intellectual Property of the people who worked on it is in the box, that You cannot reproduce.

I wonder what You think about IP protection, as the "Game Designer" badge is under Your name.


Well as I was changing the design in my given example(not using the art, not proposing to share the project, just offering my insight that there is very little in the box that you couldn't do yourself) I don't really think it's an issue.

As for IP, the designers here borrowed upon the IP of others in order to create this game.. Y'know, because they didn't invent Godzilla, but they were more than happy to clone him for their game. Beyond that, you can't copyright game mechanics, so no foul there either.

So all in all, I think you've missed the point of the OP and taken offense where non was meant, but if you truly want my opinion on IP as a Game Designer, I'd say it's a myth. It's a good idea, but virtually impossible to enforce. I speak from experience here.


I think this is a very weak and disrespectful post.
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Justus
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rickert wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
horlaci wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
... I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer....


The design, the Intellectual Property of the people who worked on it is in the box, that You cannot reproduce.

I wonder what You think about IP protection, as the "Game Designer" badge is under Your name.


Well as I was changing the design in my given example(not using the art, not proposing to share the project, just offering my insight that there is very little in the box that you couldn't do yourself) I don't really think it's an issue.

As for IP, the designers here borrowed upon the IP of others in order to create this game.. Y'know, because they didn't invent Godzilla, but they were more than happy to clone him for their game. Beyond that, you can't copyright game mechanics, so no foul there either.

So all in all, I think you've missed the point of the OP and taken offense where non was meant, but if you truly want my opinion on IP as a Game Designer, I'd say it's a myth. It's a good idea, but virtually impossible to enforce. I speak from experience here.


I think this is a very weak and disrespectful post.


I don't.

People's morals may vary. I don't mind DIY sets, though I would look quite askance at selling such sets.

Legalities are a little more cut and dry. And copying mechanisms seems to be pretty clearly not illegal. And as Tom mentioned, enforcement is quite rare.
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Tom Grimshaw
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rickert wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
horlaci wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
... I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer....


The design, the Intellectual Property of the people who worked on it is in the box, that You cannot reproduce.

I wonder what You think about IP protection, as the "Game Designer" badge is under Your name.


Well as I was changing the design in my given example(not using the art, not proposing to share the project, just offering my insight that there is very little in the box that you couldn't do yourself) I don't really think it's an issue.

As for IP, the designers here borrowed upon the IP of others in order to create this game.. Y'know, because they didn't invent Godzilla, but they were more than happy to clone him for their game. Beyond that, you can't copyright game mechanics, so no foul there either.

So all in all, I think you've missed the point of the OP and taken offense where non was meant, but if you truly want my opinion on IP as a Game Designer, I'd say it's a myth. It's a good idea, but virtually impossible to enforce. I speak from experience here.


I think this is a very weak and disrespectful post.


Yet you can make no counterpoint to it, other than to be disrespectful yourself?
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Cartomancer wrote:
rickert wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
horlaci wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
... I see very little in the box I don't already own or, can produce with a little time and a printer....


The design, the Intellectual Property of the people who worked on it is in the box, that You cannot reproduce.

I wonder what You think about IP protection, as the "Game Designer" badge is under Your name.


Well as I was changing the design in my given example(not using the art, not proposing to share the project, just offering my insight that there is very little in the box that you couldn't do yourself) I don't really think it's an issue.

As for IP, the designers here borrowed upon the IP of others in order to create this game.. Y'know, because they didn't invent Godzilla, but they were more than happy to clone him for their game. Beyond that, you can't copyright game mechanics, so no foul there either.

So all in all, I think you've missed the point of the OP and taken offense where non was meant, but if you truly want my opinion on IP as a Game Designer, I'd say it's a myth. It's a good idea, but virtually impossible to enforce. I speak from experience here.


I think this is a very weak and disrespectful post.


Yet you can make no counterpoint to it, other than to be disrespectful yourself?


Yep, that's me. The counterpoint to each of your points can be found here. Just scroll upward. I don't care who I insult if I am defending game creators. Your post, in my opinion because what other opinion would I be giving, was disrespectful toward those who create games and I don't think that needs any further counterpoint.
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Michael Nerman
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Don't be surprised that you're encountering hostility here. You're basically engaging in piracy here, and people feel strongly about that. Some people feel that playing someone's game without purchasing it (much like pirating music and movies) is akin to stealing, and that it's detrimental to the gaming community. I disagree with that philosophy and support you if you decide to make your own copy.

Speaking of which, my game Win, Don't Lose is public domain if you want to make a copy. Like KoT it's a fast and silly filler, and like KoT, the object is to win and not to lose.
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Tom Grimshaw
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nerman8r wrote:
Don't be surprised that you're encountering hostility here. You're basically engaging in piracy here, and people feel strongly about that. Some people feel that playing someone's game without purchasing it (much like pirating music and movies) is akin to stealing, and that it's detrimental to the gaming community. I disagree with that philosophy and support you if you decide to make your own copy.

Speaking of which, my game Win, Don't Lose is public domain if you want to make a copy. Like KoT it's a fast and silly filler, and like KoT, the object is to win and not to lose.


The thing that's come out of this whole thing that's actually surprised me is the "logic" (and I use that in a very loose sense) of certain individuals.

People are quick to jump on the band wagon of piety, but if they actually too the time to read my OP they'd see that this thread was less about "let's all take to the pira-sea", and more about how little I feel you get for your money with this game (as enjoyable as it is).

Like you, I don't believe that making your own copy, for your own use, with no aims of every trying to sell it (because that would be illegal) is a bad thing. You may even introduce others to the game! But the "logic" of the self-appointed police of vice and virtue seems to suggest that once an idea is in production, it's a no go zone.. Even if it's based on the IP of others.. Because that makes all kinds of sense. shake

Now, I'm not denying that if I made a game similar to KOT featuring actual Kaiju that I would be borrowing upon the intellectual property of others. I'm not selling it though, and it wouldn't be a straight card for card copy at any rate (as my OP is pretty clear on). It's just the concept and the mechanics I'd be using, neither of which is prohibited.
 
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Cartomancer wrote:
People are quick to jump on the band wagon of piety, but if they actually too the time to read my OP they'd see that this thread was less about "let's all take to the pira-sea", and more about how little I feel you get for your money with this game (as enjoyable as it is).


I won't engage in an argument about whether making a copy or not is appropriate, because I can see both sides of the argument and am on the fence myself! I will agree that it seems expensive for what you get though, it was one of the reservations about me purchasing my own copy. Fortunately I convinced my wife it's something she would like so it got bought with joint money! Otherwise I don't think I would have bought it myself. I think the real question when considering purchasing a game such as this is how much use you can get out of it, I play it quite a lot so even though it was expensive I feel that I will get value out of it because it will provide many hours of fun. Of course, if you are on a fixed income then it becomes a much harder decision to make.
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You seem to equate illegal with immoral. It's almost like you're saying that since copyright can't be effectively enforced, it doesn't matter if you copy other people's ideas.

Other people in this thread are saying that if you copy someone's ideas, it's wrong, even if it's a legally fuzzy area. So of course they're going to take exception to you doing said copying, the same way they would if you were saying you were going to break into someone's house or kick a puppy.

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Rick Teverbaugh
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Components should be only a small part of what the game's MSRP should be and that makes a lot of this thread's supporting arguments moot. There are probably at least 10 legitimate factors that play a part. There's packaging, marketing, development, etc., each with a cost to be layered on. I've been told that custom dice are one of the more expensive things to produce in a game.

To me, I mostly judge how much a game is worth by the amount of time I will spend enjoying the playing of the game. Dominion will likely always be my greatest bargain even at $20-40 per box of cards because of the thousands of hours spent playing it.
 
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