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Subject: Waterloo 20- Ney card question rss

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milhouse x
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I've looked and can't see this addressed anywhere, so at the risk of repeating a question already asked/answered, here goes:

Situation:
It is the French player's turn. He draws the "Michael Ney" event card, which allows the Allied player to move a French unit adjacent to an Allied unit and conduct an immediate selective attack. The Allied player forces a French unit to attack (say at a -1 or -2 differential- the Allied player is a bit of a bastard) and the French unit gets an AW result. The unit retreats one hex (not a hazardous retreat in this instance).

Question:
Since this occurs in the Event Phase (I take the word "immediate" in the card to mean the selective attack takes place during that phase) can the unit now move into the EZOC (during the French Player's Movement Phase) and conduct another attack (during his Combat Phase)?

Since the result of AW does not impose any penalty on the unit there seems to be no reason why it cannot. However, 9.1.2 "Pushing Too Hard" states a unit can only attack once during a Friendly Combat Phase- since this attack occurred during the Event Phase this would not seem to apply. Thus the unit can attack twice in one turn. This would also be the case if the result of the selective attack was N, which would leave the unit in the EZOC; however, in this case the French unit would be forced to attack twice (once in the selective attack and another time in the Combat Phase).

I could see this being the case if the selective attack results in a DW (another attack would be allowed as the French unit won the combat) or in an N (the French player has to rush in additional forces or continue to run the risk of a combat at a disadvantage). But if it lost the combat (AW result in the selective attack) it appears to get another go of it in the same turn if they want it only this time they can choose the hex to attack from and they can get additional units to help.

Am I reading this right?

Edit: corrected rules reference.
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Lance McMillan
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Ney's selective attack doesn't occur in the Event phase, it occurs (as normal) during the Combat phase. His unit gets moved in the Event phase, but because he'll often end up in an EZOC he then won't be able to move during the normal Movement phase. The French player will have an opportunity to move units up in supporting attacks (Ney's attack still has to be Selective, so he must attack on his own, but other French units can be used to "soak off" against some Allied units so that Ney isn't effectively suiciding).

Hope that clears things up.

Lance McMillan
Developer for VPG's "Napoleonic 20" series
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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What of the use of the word "immediate"?
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Lance McMillan
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sdiberar wrote:
What of the use of the word "immediate"?


The problem is that (as Milhouse notes) conducting the Selective attack outside of the normal Combat phase opens up a can of worms, potentially allowing the unit in question to attack twice (or for its target to be attacked twice) in direct violation of [9.1.2]. Always bear in mind that we try very hard to write our rules so that there's no "memory" required (e.g. the players should be able to walk away from the table and not have to remember whether something happened or not when they return to the game), so in this case we don't want the players having to remember whether unit X already attacked/was attacked during the Event phase, thus effecting whether it could do so again in the Combat phase.

In this case, to avoid the above problem, I'd interpret the word "immediate" as meaning Ney's selective attack must be resolved as the first battle of the Combat phase. You're still getting Ney put into a (potentially) dangerous situation, but it avoids (or at least minimizes) the issues associated with out-of-sequence attacks.
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milhouse x
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Thanks. I really appreciate the quick response. I'll play as per your last. Maybe this should find its way into the FAQ...?

BTW, love the game. I've been thinking about getting into the series for awhile now and am really enjoying it (I picked it up with GMT's latest sale).
 
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Lance McMillan
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Milhouse917 wrote:
BTW, love the game. I've been thinking about getting into the series for awhile now and am really enjoying it (I picked it up with GMT's latest sale).


Thanks for the compliment. If you enjoy the games, please consider P500-ing the follow-on quad package "Rising Glory" (which will include one of my favorite games in the series, 'Austerlitz 20').
 
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milhouse x
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It is certainly on my radar and a game I'm considering. I already have one P500 I'm waiting on and Panzer: Game Expansion Set, Nr3 – Drive to the Rhine – The Second Front 1944-45 is next on my list to pre-order. However, the more I play Fading Glory the more I am thinking I will have to pre-order Rising Glory too.

For anyone else interested in this, according to GMT's P500 page (www.gmtgames.com/s-2-p500.aspx) they are a little over halfway there so maybe consider making this a priority.
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C Sandifer
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Milhouse917 wrote:
Thanks. I really appreciate the quick response...Maybe this should find its way into the FAQ...?


I second the motion that this should go into the FAQ. I've played Waterloo over a dozen times - it's our most-played scenario in the Fading Glory set - and we always assumed that "immediate" really did mean immediate. In other words, we always resolved the Ney card attack in the events phase.

(I like it much more that way, actually, but that's beside the point.)
 
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Lance McMillan
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wkover wrote:
I second the motion that this should go into the FAQ. I've played Waterloo over a dozen times - it's our most-played scenario in the Fading Glory set - and we always assumed that "immediate" really did mean immediate. In other words, we always resolved the Ney card attack in the events phase.

(I like it much more that way, actually, but that's beside the point.)


I'll see what I can do with the FAQ (again, I'm not a GMT employee and so don't feel comfortable making "official" pronouncements regarding what is one of their products). And to be honest, my preference would be to resolve the event with an "immediate" attack by Ney during the Events Phase as well (it's a much cleaner way of handling it), but as noted above it opens up a host of problems with multiple mandatory attacks.
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