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Subject: Questions, and more questions... rss

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S. R.
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As interesting as this game is, there are a lot of things that are unclear, even with the reworked rules by a BGGamer that are (at the moment) in progress (see other thread, somewhere here). Unfortunately, that means that it really is work to go through the game and understand it, or teach it...

So this is where I'll try to ask all the stupid questions I come up with during the reading of the rules and the attempted playthrough I am doing at the moment...
...some of them will be due to ambiguities, some due to me not understanding things completely. And some might be answered somewhere else already. So I apologize in advance...

1. Start Player Marker

I guess that this marker is moved after each round? Or not?
It seems awfully unfair for the same player to be able to start each bidding, especially in the beginning.
And if it is moved, who becomes the next Start Player? The next in clockwise order? Meaning that in a 2 or 4 player game, one player will have 1 turn less than the other(s)?

2. Building Trade Routes
So there are 14 General Routes, but only 4 Allied Trade Routes. The way I see it, each player could have 3 General, and participate in 3 Allied Trade Routes. Meaning that you'd need at most 12 General, but also COULD need 6 Allied Trade Routes...
...is this correct? Or can you have multiple Trade Routes to THE SAME opponent?

3. Status Markers
Okay, so there are 7 Status markers - Military, Politics, Transportation / Food, Mineral, Culture, Money.
What I am missing is a marker for Defense. If everything is tracked here, shouldn't defense be tracked, also? Doesn't make sense to see everything on the status board, but for that you have to scan your "country"...

But what is more important is - how do these markers work, actually? I know this sounds like a stupid question, but bear with me...
To me, they seem like the kind of status display that only shows what the symbols on your "country" show. Meaning if 5 "rooms" show the food symbol, you have the yellow marker at "5"...

However, if this is the case, then the Transportation aspect collides massively with movement on the Trade routes. Especially if movement there is Transportation-1 (Rest Room as Result). Which means that any player that gains access to another wheel will have quite an advantage...

This way, it looks like the status is awfully restrictive, here. Could be a good thing, but sounds very limiting in the beginning...


4. Activity Boxes
Okay, here is where it gets really interesting, and unclear for me. How the heck do they work, exactly?
Do they "activate" when a worker is moved there? Do they stay active as long as a worker stays there? And do they deactivate when a worker is moved off of the "room"...?
But if that is the case, then...
...what if I have a worker on a room giving me one "Politics" point, but move this exact worker to the Trade Route with THIS EXACT point? Is that even possible?

What's more, how do black boxes without golden frame work (the ones on heroes or workers, for example)? Are they always active?
For example on "Moses", there is the "worker gets born" aspect, which is one time, okay, but is the 1 food only one time, also???



So far, these are the only questions, but more will pop up, definitely. And I will post them here, when they come. Not even through two rounds of the game, and I already wonder if it all works the way I think (or read) it does...
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Ben
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I'm going to try to help, based on the info I've found in the rulebook and elsewhere. But I can't guarantee that I'm right either.

Dumon wrote:
1. Start Player Marker
I guess that this marker is moved after each round? Or not?


Passes to the left at the end of the round. I believe this is in the English rules.


Quote:
2. Building Trade Routes
...is this correct? Or can you have multiple Trade Routes to THE SAME opponent?


You can multiple trade routes with the same player.


Quote:
3. Status MarkersBut what is more important is - how do these markers work, actually? ...
To me, they seem like the kind of status display that only shows what the symbols on your "country" show. Meaning if 5 "rooms" show the food symbol, you have the yellow marker at "5"...


You are correct so far.


Quote:
However, if this is the case, then the Transportation aspect collides massively with movement on the Trade routes. Especially if movement there is Transportation-1 (Rest Room as Result). Which means that any player that gains access to another wheel will have quite an advantage...


This is not correct. Each worker (either on your country or on a trade route) may move up to the number of your transportation. A worker on a trade route must move at least one space (this could include simply moving to rest, but a worker on a trade route may not stay on the same space).

(The n-1 thing is a old, incorrect version of the rule.)


Quote:
4. Activity Boxes
Okay, here is where it gets really interesting, and unclear for me. How the heck do they work, exactly?
Do they "activate" when a worker is moved there? Do they stay active as long as a worker stays there? And do they deactivate when a worker is moved off of the "room"...?


If a worker is on a tile with an activity box, that box is activated (and reflected on the status tracks).


Quote:
But if that is the case, then...
...what if I have a worker on a room giving me one "Politics" point, but move this exact worker to the Trade Route with THIS EXACT point? Is that even possible?


Yes, that is possible. At the beginning of the Diplomacy phase, you check your POL status marker. That is how many action points you have to spend for the whole phase. Once the worker leaves the room, your status marker is changed, but it does not affect your action points for the round.


Quote:
What's more, how do black boxes without golden frame work (the ones on heroes or workers, for example)? Are they always active?


This are not activity boxes. They are always active.


Hope this helps. meeple
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all answers from Ben are correct !
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Dumon wrote:
1. Start Player Marker[/b]
I guess that this marker is moved after each round? Or not?
It seems awfully unfair for the same player to be able to start each bidding, especially in the beginning.

Start player is moved clockwise after each round.

Dumon wrote:
2. Building Trade Routes
So there are 14 General Routes, but only 4 Allied Trade Routes. The way I see it, each player could have 3 General, and participate in 3 Allied Trade Routes. Meaning that you'd need at most 12 General, but also COULD need 6 Allied Trade Routes...
...is this correct? Or can you have multiple Trade Routes to THE SAME opponent?

You can have any number of General Trade Routes between any pair of kingdoms. You may only have a single Allied Trade Route between any pair of kingdoms (you are either Allied or not, there is no double Alliance).

Dumon wrote:
3. Status Markers
Okay, so there are 7 Status markers - Military, Politics, Transportation / Food, Mineral, Culture, Money.
What I am missing is a marker for Defense. If everything is tracked here, shouldn't defense be tracked, also? Doesn't make sense to see everything on the status board, but for that you have to scan your "country"...

It doesn't make sense, but you are correct. You could always find an eighth colour of disc (or use some sort of cube) for the defence.

Dumon wrote:
But what is more important is - how do these markers work, actually? I know this sounds like a stupid question, but bear with me...
To me, they seem like the kind of status display that only shows what the symbols on your "country" show. Meaning if 5 "rooms" show the food symbol, you have the yellow marker at "5"...

This is correct, bear in mind that in addition to the icons you also need to add any resources produced by "R" effects on Heroes & Wonders.

Dumon wrote:
However, if this is the case, then the Transportation aspect collides massively with movement on the Trade routes. Especially if movement there is Transportation-1 (Rest Room as Result). Which means that any player that gains access to another wheel will have quite an advantage...

Movement on Trade Routes is a minimum of 1 and a maximum equal to your transport level. The -1 is a mistake.


Dumon wrote:
4. Activity Boxes
Okay, here is where it gets really interesting, and unclear for me. How the heck do they work, exactly?
Do they "activate" when a worker is moved there? Do they stay active as long as a worker stays there? And do they deactivate when a worker is moved off of the "room"...?
But if that is the case, then...
...what if I have a worker on a room giving me one "Politics" point, but move this exact worker to the Trade Route with THIS EXACT point? Is that even possible?

POL is only evaluated at the beginning of the phase, any changes to it during the phase are irrelevant.

Dumon wrote:
What's more, how do black boxes without golden frame work (the ones on heroes or workers, for example)? Are they always active?
For example on "Moses", there is the "worker gets born" aspect, which is one time, okay, but is the 1 food only one time, also???

Icons on Heroes and Wonders are always active. Only icons in Gold Activity Boxes require a worker to be present to be active.



Dumon wrote:
So far, these are the only questions, but more will pop up, definitely. And I will post them here, when they come. Not even through two rounds of the game, and I already wonder if it all works the way I think (or read) it does...
I'm hoping to upload a PDF of my rules rewrite tonight. It would hopefully have answered most of these questions.
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First of all, thanks for the answers so far.
But, as promised, some more questions...

5. Trade Routes cont.
I am guessing that Allied Trade Routes do NOT replace General Trade Routes...?
Also, I am guessing that on Allied Trade Routes players can only step on spaces with camels that walk in the right direction...?
Lastly, War on Trade routes is delayed for one round, correct? Negotiations happen, and you decide to war against your opponent, pay preparation costs, and then...
...go to war the next round (step into the War space)...?

6. "R"
This "R" thing keeps confusing me. It is stated that "R" things are "produced" every round. Which also implies that all things not "R" are not produced every round.

But then, what does "produced every round" mean?
- Each symbol of a certain kind increases the corresponding level of the status marker, so the food of Moses is produced every round.
- If you get more wasteland spaces, the ability of Gwanggaeto the Great (remaining in effect) lets you adjust your Military status. This does not mean that "Military" is produced, because there is no production. Still...
- ...if we take it one step further, to Cyrus the Great, his ability has no R, and is therefore the same as Gwanggaetos. However, for each time you gain ressources through the trade routes, you get 1 VP (I am guessing you do NOT increase your VP status by one), right? So he produces every round his ability triggers. Okay, that is not every round, but...
- ...how is that much different to Petra? Or does Petra actually INCREASE the LEVEL of the status marker each round, and per trade route?
- ...how is Gwanggaetos ability different from the Hanging Gardens of Babylon? The first line, of course, not the second...
- ...how is it different than that of Homer?

I do not understand the significance of "R", nor how it differentiates cards from other cards...


7. Prosperity Tiles
I am guessing that it's the three you have, and the rest can go back into the box...?
Also, I am guess that if every card has the same amount of votes on it after Voting, all get discarded?

...help???
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Okay, take a look here if you'd like to grab a PDF of my adapted rules: Re: My Attempt to Clean up the Rules
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Dumon wrote:
First of all, thanks for the answers so far.
But, as promised, some more questions...

5. Trade Routes cont.
I am guessing that Allied Trade Routes do NOT replace General Trade Routes...?

Correct
Dumon wrote:
Also, I am guessing that on Allied Trade Routes players can only step on spaces with camels that walk in the right direction...?

No, you can stop on any space.
Dumon wrote:
Lastly, War on Trade routes is delayed for one round, correct? Negotiations happen, and you decide to war against your opponent, pay preparation costs, and then...
...go to war the next round (step into the War space)...?

Yes, war is delayed by one turn, you will move into the war room during the next Movement phase.

Dumon wrote:
6. "R"
This "R" thing keeps confusing me. It is stated that "R" things are "produced" every round. Which also implies that all things not "R" are not produced every round.

Production icons are just production icons, they always function if they are present.

"R" abilities are just there to separate them from abilities which give you immediate resources (e.g. Chichen-Itza) rather than actually increasing your production of those resources.

If it helps, you could think of "R" abilities as being a variable number of production icons.

Dumon wrote:
But then, what does "produced every round" mean?
- Each symbol of a certain kind increases the corresponding level of the status marker, so the food of Moses is produced every round.

Correct
Dumon wrote:
- If you get more wasteland spaces, the ability of Gwanggaeto the Great (remaining in effect) lets you adjust your Military status. This does not mean that "Military" is produced, because there is no production. Still...
- ...if we take it one step further, to Cyrus the Great, his ability has no R, and is therefore the same as Gwanggaetos. However, for each time you gain ressources through the trade routes, you get 1 VP (I am guessing you do NOT increase your VP status by one), right? So he produces every round his ability triggers. Okay, that is not every round, but...
- ...how is that much different to Petra? Or does Petra actually INCREASE the LEVEL of the status marker each round, and per trade route?
- ...how is Gwanggaetos ability different from the Hanging Gardens of Babylon? The first line, of course, not the second...
- ...how is it different than that of Homer?
Gwanggaetos, Petra, Homer and Babylon are all essentially the same: move the following on your Player Status Board according to how many of X you have. Cyrus is slightly different because he only triggers under certain circumstances.

Dumon wrote:
I do not understand the significance of "R", nor how it differentiates cards from other cards...

It's just a shorthand, it doesn't significantly alter the nature of the cards, it just means "increase your production of Food" rather than "gain a one off Food payment".


Dumon wrote:
7. Prosperity Tiles
I am guessing that it's the three you have, and the rest can go back into the box...?
Also, I am guess that if every card has the same amount of votes on it after Voting, all get discarded?

Correct on both counts.
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First, thanks a lot.

But what you are saying means that the "R" is not necessary at all. Because it does not alter the ability, or make it applicable in certain situations only (or actually more situations).
Or am I missing something here?

I'll look at the cards again, but I cannot see what the reason would be for the "R" to be included. And, doubter that I am, I always expect there to be one...
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Dumon wrote:
First, thanks a lot.

But what you are saying means that the "R" is not necessary at all. Because it does not alter the ability, or make it applicable in certain situations only (or actually more situations).
Or am I missing something here?

I'll look at the cards again, but I cannot see what the reason would be for the "R" to be included. And, doubter that I am, I always expect there to be one...


The "R" is to distinguish between the following:
Food+1 per wonder
"R" Food+1 per wonder

The first would be a one-off payment of X Food where X is the number of wonders you possess at the time of patching. The second is an adjustment to your overall Food production based on the number of wonders you possess. The first would not take into account any subsequent wonder construction, the second would.

Any clearer?
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But then Gwanggaeto's ability only works when patching, also. So only once. And all the others I mentioned...

Additionally, why then state "when patching" on some cards, and omitting it on others...?

This is a huge ambiguity...
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Dumon wrote:
But then Gwanggaeto's ability only works when patching, also. So only once. And all the others I mentioned...

Additionally, why then state "when patching" on some cards, and omitting it on others...?

This is a huge ambiguity...

It's only needed for things which could also be taken as resources. You never take military as a resource, so they don't need to clarify whether they mean one-off payment of resources or a status adjustment. For Food, Minerals, Money and VPs they do.

When they say MIL+X it's clearly a status change.
When they say Food+X it's ambiguous, so they add R to mean production status change and omit it for a one-off.

Status is not a one-time thing but something you evaluate constantly. So, Gwanggaeto is evaluated constantly. If you liked, you could add a sort of implicit "R" in front of any POL, MIL or TRA ability.
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Actually, I wonder if, rather than an "R" they had used a little cog like the ones on the Player Status Board, that would have helped make things clearer?
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chally wrote:


Yes, that is possible. At the beginning of the Diplomacy phase, you check your POL status marker. That is how many action points you have to spend for the whole phase. Once the worker leaves the room, your status marker is changed, but it does not affect your action points for the round.



So it would be a very good idea to have two Politics tracks. One that can change according to production and one to track the actual points spent during the phase..., right?
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So it would be a very good idea to have two Politics tracks. One that can change according to production and one to track the actual points spent during the phase..., right?[/q]

We initially thought so, but most of the game our POL status was so low that it didn't matter. If you've ever played an action-point allowance game, such as Tikal, you should be capable of tracking your expenditures in your head. (Nothing stops you from adding a purple cube if you think it will help, of course.)
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Benjamin (first time I need to use the full name, for differentiation purposes), your POL will not "drop" significantly during your Diplomacy & Maintenance Phase. The only way that it could is if you move a pawn that was previously on a space giving you "temporary" POL to one of your trade routes. And while this can happen, the changes are so small that it would not matter.

What's more, you determine how many points you have at the beginning of this phase, and deduct points for every action you take from this predetermined total. IF you want to keep track of that, it would make more sense to include a few purple cubes that you take as "Politics Points", and spend on actions. It could be more fiddly bookkeeping stuff than is necessary, but since you need to calculate the points through two parts of this phase (first diplomacy for all, then maintenance for all, with both needing to be paid by these points), it could be an interesting add-on.
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if i remember well, the authors said you can use the POL track when you spend POL actions because you can check the track at the production phase.
or they said you keep in mind what you used.
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I finally got this on the table last night, with four players. Took us about four hours (we had a slow-thinker at the table), and ultimately came out with the majority of us thinking the game to be very interesting and/or fun. Some things we realized:
- If you get handed a bad lot in the first round, that does not mean you are out of the game
- If you do not build a functioning infrastructure, you ARE out of the game...

However, along came a few more questions...

1) Buildings
It is often the case that a card talks about buildings. Now, I assume that everything that is considered a "room" in the old rules, and that is not wasteland, water, a wonder or a hero is actually a building. So my starting card consists of six buildings (E), and any card I acquire consists of (at most) 4 buildings.
Right?
...this is important, because while the Political action "Erect Building" lets us believe that the small tiles are actually buildings, there are far too many cards that refer to buildings of one sort or the other to only take these placed tiles into account...

2) Prosperity Cards

Now, I am missing a description of those in the rules, but then, I am missing a lot. Not in the rewrite, because it is fantastic, but even there the Prosperity Cards are not described.
Usually, you do not need these descriptions. But, in tune with the question above, what do you actually count when you cound "General Rooms"? All of them, whether built or patched?
And what about Trade Routes? I guess you count only the ones that you can access...?

3) Patching
The rules forbid patching over a water space.
But what about patching UNDER a building tile? Yes, the rules state that you cannot patch directly under a building tile, but they state this so specifically that one has to wonder if it is still possible to patch under the card that has the building tile on it...

4) White Spaces

There are several cards with white spaces on them. Now, I realize that this is just a "blank" space of the card, not filled with water or wasteland, because they, too, could be helpful.
But how do you treat these white spaces?
Can you patch over them, and then it counts as a successful patch (if you ONLY place it over white space)?
Can you erect buildings on white spaces?
How big are white spaces? Can they be broken up into "rooms", or are they one big room?

5) Production
Now, there are several Prosperity cards that score most production of one or the other ressource etc.
But what about heroes and wonders rated "R"?
Does e.g. a hero that states "R: Gain Money +1 for each CUL building" create more "production", i.e. more that can be scored?
Or is this a separate thing?
Also, I take it that an orange building that does NOT sport the wheel will not raise your TRA by one, only because it's orange, right?

That's it for now. I got the feeling I forgot one important aspect, but it will come up again anyways, I guess...
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4. The cards with white spaces are for making your own cards. They are not intended to be played on that side unless you have created custom rooms on that side.
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Dumon wrote:
So my starting card consists of six buildings (E), and any card I acquire consists of (at most) 4 buildings.


I think this is right, though I don't recall the card text you are referring to. In general, there are two types of buildings: general buildings are the colored rooms, such as those on your starting baseland. Special buildings are the white-backed rooms that appear on the black side of some land tiles. Construction tiles contain general buildings on one side, which can be placed by using the Erect Building action.


Quote:
But, in tune with the question above, what do you actually count when you cound "General Rooms"? All of them, whether built or patched?
And what about Trade Routes? I guess you count only the ones that you can access…?

First, you should imagine the construction tiles as changing a room on a land card, rather than sitting on top of it. Once a construction tile is built, it is part of the land card on which it sits.

General buildings - count all visible general buildings in your civilization.

Trade routes - count all trade routes you have (i.e., trade routes with a Start space on your side.


Quote:
The rules forbid patching over a water space.

Just to be clear, they forbid patching over or under a water space.


Quote:
But what about patching UNDER a building tile?

Again, building tiles become part of the land card on which they sit. So you can patch under the land card that was altered by the building tile, and you can patch over a land card that was altered by the building tile, but you can never patch between the land card and the building tile.


Quote:
White Spaces

These are expansion pieces for you to create your own heroes and wonders. They are not necessary to play the game, and they should not be used unless you've added heroes or wonders to them.


Quote:
Does e.g. a hero that states "R: Gain Money +1 for each CUL building" create more "production", i.e. more that can be scored?

Yes. The "R" exists to distinguish production benefits, which alter your status tracks, from one-time benefits or action-dependent benefits.


Quote:
Also, I take it that an orange building that does NOT sport the wheel will not raise your TRA by one, only because it's orange, right?

Correct. Your status markers track the number the activated symbols on your baseland. The color of general buildings correlates with particular symbols, but not every orange building (for example) provides you with a wheel. Some heroes and wonders give you benefits for the type of building, rather than the symbol, which is why the two things occasionally diverge.


Hope this helps! Have fun playing. meeple
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Dumon wrote:
1) Buildings
It is often the case that a card talks about buildings. Now, I assume that everything that is considered a "room" in the old rules, and that is not wasteland, water, a wonder or a hero is actually a building. So my starting card consists of six buildings (E), and any card I acquire consists of (at most) 4 buildings.
Right?
...this is important, because while the Political action "Erect Building" lets us believe that the small tiles are actually buildings, there are far too many cards that refer to buildings of one sort or the other to only take these placed tiles into account...


There are two types of buildings, General and Special. Special buildings only appear on the black sides of Land Cards and have a white background. General buildings are any of the six basic building types (Industry, Culture, Economy, Military, Traffic and Politics) and will have a coloured background.

In other words, everything that isn't water, wasteland, hero or wonder is a building of some type.

Dumon wrote:
2) Prosperity Cards
Now, I am missing a description of those in the rules, but then, I am missing a lot. Not in the rewrite, because it is fantastic, but even there the Prosperity Cards are not described.

Yeah, I should add a quick summary of these.
Dumon wrote:
Usually, you do not need these descriptions. But, in tune with the question above, what do you actually count when you cound "General Rooms"? All of them, whether built or patched?

Any General Rooms in your territory which are visible (i.e. they have not been patched over). This includes buildings on Land Cards and buildings on Construction Tiles.

Dumon wrote:
And what about Trade Routes? I guess you count only the ones that you can access...?

Correct.

Dumon wrote:
3) Patching
The rules forbid patching over a water space.
But what about patching UNDER a building tile? Yes, the rules state that you cannot patch directly under a building tile, but they state this so specifically that one has to wonder if it is still possible to patch under the card that has the building tile on it...

You can patch under anything other than a water room. The exception in the rules is specifically that you cannot patch between a Construction Tile and the Land Card it sits on (effectively moving the Construction Tile to the new Land Card).

Dumon wrote:
4) White Spaces
There are several cards with white spaces on them. Now, I realize that this is just a "blank" space of the card, not filled with water or wasteland, because they, too, could be helpful.
But how do you treat these white spaces?
Can you patch over them, and then it counts as a successful patch (if you ONLY place it over white space)?
Can you erect buildings on white spaces?
How big are white spaces? Can they be broken up into "rooms", or are they one big room?


These are promo items, do with them as you wish.

Dumon wrote:
5) Production
Now, there are several Prosperity cards that score most production of one or the other ressource etc.
But what about heroes and wonders rated "R"?
Does e.g. a hero that states "R: Gain Money +1 for each CUL building" create more "production", i.e. more that can be scored?
Or is this a separate thing?

"R" abilities are factored into your production status and are counted when scoring the prosperity cards.
Dumon wrote:
Also, I take it that an orange building that does NOT sport the wheel will not raise your TRA by one, only because it's orange, right?

Correct. TRA = Number of active wheels in your territory.


Edit: Damn, ninja'd by the GotW!
 
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chally wrote:
[q="Dumon"]
Quote:
The rules forbid patching over a water space.

Just to be clear, they forbid patching over or under a water space.


I was under the impression that you CAN patch under water - but just once?
 
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benji_online wrote:
chally wrote:
[q="Dumon"]
Quote:
The rules forbid patching over a water space.

Just to be clear, they forbid patching over or under a water space.


I was under the impression that you CAN patch under water - but just once?

Water can be patched over other stuff (except water). Nothing can be patched over or under water.
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Ah THAT makes sense (and the reason why I have seen stuff patched under water!) Thank you!
 
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chally wrote:
I think this is right, though I don't recall the card text you are referring to.

I was generalizing, and might have had the description of a wonder or hero (from the rules) in my head, rather than the card itself...


chally wrote:

Quote:
The rules forbid patching over a water space.

Just to be clear, they forbid patching over or under a water space.

Well, not according to my rules (or what I remember). You might always patch under a water space, but might not patch a water space itself under any other space...

chally wrote:

Quote:
White Spaces

These are expansion pieces for you to create your own heroes and wonders. They are not necessary to play the game, and they should not be used unless you've added heroes or wonders to them.

This is really weird, as I would expect a game to come complete, or with "build yourself stuff", but not with cards that can be used on one side, and not on the other (until you make your own stuff there).
However, why shouldn't I use the card? I think the explanation by "grandslam" makes a lot more sense - to not use THIS SIDE of the card...


chally wrote:

Quote:
Does e.g. a hero that states "R: Gain Money +1 for each CUL building" create more "production", i.e. more that can be scored?

Yes. The "R" exists to distinguish production benefits, which alter your status tracks, from one-time benefits or action-dependent benefits.

And we are again in the deep waters of the "R"...
A TRA symbol on a card is the same as
A text stating "TRA+1 for each ECU building" is the same as
A text stating "R: TRA+1 for each MIL"
...meaning that TRA+1 is the same in all three instances.

This completely makes the "R" obsolete, as you would check status anyways, not only on those cards with the "R". And as to the "confusion with one-time effects" - these are ALWAYS mentioned as "when patched" or "once per game".

If you are true, and not even the "R" classification makes a difference between raising your status marker or simply gaining something during the production phase, then I an absolutely annoyed by the "R". It has no purpose, makes no sense.

If, on the other hand (as I thought during our game) increases marked "R" are NOT counted when scoring with a prosperity card, or when applying the effect of another patch card, THEN the R would have a purpose.

This is my greatest beef with the game so far - the missing uniformity of rules treatment in card text...


In all other things we are in agreement.
Thanks for your help!
 
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Correction:
I was wrong about the water, was just able to recheck. You are right - we played it wrong...
 
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