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Subject: Panda Games & Miniatures rss

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Mike Strickland
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Does anyone know what the cost estimates are for 28mm miniatures (or somewhere close to that size) manufactured by Panda Games? Their minimum order quantity is 3,000 for a game with miniatures. If anyone knows an approximate per/unit cost per miniature that would be awesome. I just need a general idea of what to expect. I will fill out their detailed quote form later on, but for now I'm just looking for a quick estimate.
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Brook Gentlestream
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It depends partially on how many "unique" miniatures your game will gave. 20 identical monster figures will be far cheaper than 20 unique player character figures.
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Nicholas Vitek
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I would very much like to hear what the outcome of the quote request is!
 
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Ricky Dang
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So any games with miniatures needs at least 3,000 copies? Not 1,500? Didn't know that.
 
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Mike Strickland
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NeoGenesisX wrote:
So any games with miniatures needs at least 3,000 copies? Not 1,500? Didn't know that.


I'm not sure about other game manufacturers, but yes, Panda Games does require a minimum order of 3,000 if you want to include miniatures. Without miniatures it is 1,500. They charge $300 -$600 if a custom sculpt needs to be made, which I thought was actually pretty cheap based on what I've been hearing. If you provide them with a physical miniature that doesn't have a ton of detailing you can avoid that cost.
 
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Nick Hayes
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Why don't you just ask them for a quote? A quote is free and it would be much more accurate than trying to glean secondhand knowledge or hearsay from the forums.
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Black Canyon wrote:
Why don't you just ask them for a quote? A quote is free and it would be much more accurate than trying to glean secondhand knowledge or hearsay from the forums.


I had planned on it, but I figured there is always a wealth of info on here. Also, it takes 2 weeks to get a quote from them, I'm too impatient I guess, just want a quick estimate of what I can expect. I definitely want an accurate quote though when it comes time to get serious about pricing things. I'm just in the beginning stages now.
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zorin_productions wrote:
NeoGenesisX wrote:
So any games with miniatures needs at least 3,000 copies? Not 1,500? Didn't know that.


I'm not sure about other game manufacturers, but yes, Panda Games does require a minimum order of 3,000 if you want to include miniatures. Without miniatures it is 1,500. They charge $300 -$600 if a custom sculpt needs to be made, which I thought was actually pretty cheap based on what I've been hearing. If you provide them with a physical miniature that doesn't have a ton of detailing you can avoid that cost.


As a modeler, am interested in this point, quite much... Does this means that if there's a custom model to be made, the whole 3,000 copies production does cost you just 300$ - 600$ in the case there are included custom models, or that a custom model in its own costs from 300 to 600? The latter would match to the lower end (well, 300, that is) of custom 3D modeling for indies (and just meaning production of the 3D model, not sending to a 3D printer and paying the (small) single prototype figure costs!), with the data I have... The former would mean... no way to compete with companies then, lol...
 
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Ricky Dang
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I suspect it may cost an additional $300-$600 per unique mold? That sounds relatively reasonable.
 
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OneManCrafts wrote:
zorin_productions wrote:
NeoGenesisX wrote:
So any games with miniatures needs at least 3,000 copies? Not 1,500? Didn't know that.


I'm not sure about other game manufacturers, but yes, Panda Games does require a minimum order of 3,000 if you want to include miniatures. Without miniatures it is 1,500. They charge $300 -$600 if a custom sculpt needs to be made, which I thought was actually pretty cheap based on what I've been hearing. If you provide them with a physical miniature that doesn't have a ton of detailing you can avoid that cost.


As a modeler, am interested in this point, quite much... Does this means that if there's a custom model to be made, the whole 3,000 copies production does cost you just 300$ - 600$ in the case there are included custom models, or that a custom model in its own costs from 300 to 600? The latter would match to the lower end (well, 300, that is) of custom 3D modeling for indies (and just meaning production of the 3D model, not sending to a 3D printer and paying the (small) single prototype figure costs!), with the data I have... The former would mean... no way to compete with companies then, lol...


No, the $300-$600 is just to create the mold. Then you have to pay the per unit cost, which I'm guessing for a 28mm would probably be in the range of (this is a far off guess) $.40 to $2.50 per miniature. I really have no clue on that part, but based on other games I've seen produced by the same company, and their costs I would imagine it's somewhere in that range.
 
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NeoGenesisX wrote:
I suspect it may cost an additional $300-$600 per unique mold? That sounds relatively reasonable.


Yes it's per unique mold, still reasonable though compared to what I've heard from others. I keep hearing people say it can cost nearly $10K for a mold, that's ridiculous and I don't know anyone that would pay that for one miniature. $300-$600 definitely makes more sense to me. It could be that they offset the cost by producing such a large quantity (min 3,000), perhaps?
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Man. I'd kill to see a quote of a specific miniature. I love background info of, well... pretty much everything.
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zorin_productions wrote:
NeoGenesisX wrote:
I suspect it may cost an additional $300-$600 per unique mold? That sounds relatively reasonable.


Yes it's per unique mold, still reasonable though compared to what I've heard from others. I keep hearing people say it can cost nearly $10K for a mold, that's ridiculous and I don't know anyone that would pay that for one miniature. $300-$600 definitely makes more sense to me. It could be that they offset the cost by producing such a large quantity (min 3,000), perhaps?


I think you are very much wrong - that $300-600 sounds like a price for a sculpt, molds are going to be a lot more. You need a sculpt to create the mold.
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T Worthington wrote:
zorin_productions wrote:
NeoGenesisX wrote:
I suspect it may cost an additional $300-$600 per unique mold? That sounds relatively reasonable.


Yes it's per unique mold, still reasonable though compared to what I've heard from others. I keep hearing people say it can cost nearly $10K for a mold, that's ridiculous and I don't know anyone that would pay that for one miniature. $300-$600 definitely makes more sense to me. It could be that they offset the cost by producing such a large quantity (min 3,000), perhaps?


I think you are very much wrong - that $300-600 sounds like a price for a sculpt, molds are going to be a lot more. You need a sculpt to create the mold.


For 10k, you're generally talking tooling and molds for high quality plastic, where you recoup the costs through quantity. Molds for metal casting, or lower quality soft plastic are much cheaper.

$300-$600 still sounds like sculpting costs more then anything, though.
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T Worthington wrote:
zorin_productions wrote:
NeoGenesisX wrote:
I suspect it may cost an additional $300-$600 per unique mold? That sounds relatively reasonable.


Yes it's per unique mold, still reasonable though compared to what I've heard from others. I keep hearing people say it can cost nearly $10K for a mold, that's ridiculous and I don't know anyone that would pay that for one miniature. $300-$600 definitely makes more sense to me. It could be that they offset the cost by producing such a large quantity (min 3,000), perhaps?


I think you are very much wrong - that $300-600 sounds like a price for a sculpt, molds are going to be a lot more. You need a sculpt to create the mold.


Yes it is for the sculpt actually, sorry I had mold on my mind for some reason! Nevertheless, they do not give a price on molds, so I'm assuming the mold is not needed or if it is it is no where near $10K. (Sorry I'm a bit clueless when it comes to the costs of these things as I am new to the world of miniatures). The reason I say I have a hard time believing that a large manufacturer like Panda would charge an additional $10K for a mold is because it would be completely uneconomical for anyone want to create a miniatures game. Think about it, if I have 10 unique miniatures in my game, I am already looking at a minimum of $100K just for the miniatures. Most games like this on Kickstarter that have numerous miniatures are no where near a $100K goal, so they are obviously doing it some other way, or are not being charged $10K per mold. Perhaps Panda is utilizing 3D printing instead? But if that is the case, why do they require a sculpt? Enlighten me...


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Mike Malley
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You wouldn't need a single mold for each figure, would you? Not for 28mm, at any rate.
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Magentawolf wrote:
T Worthington wrote:
zorin_productions wrote:
NeoGenesisX wrote:
I suspect it may cost an additional $300-$600 per unique mold? That sounds relatively reasonable.


Yes it's per unique mold, still reasonable though compared to what I've heard from others. I keep hearing people say it can cost nearly $10K for a mold, that's ridiculous and I don't know anyone that would pay that for one miniature. $300-$600 definitely makes more sense to me. It could be that they offset the cost by producing such a large quantity (min 3,000), perhaps?


I think you are very much wrong - that $300-600 sounds like a price for a sculpt, molds are going to be a lot more. You need a sculpt to create the mold.


For 10k, you're generally talking tooling and molds for high quality plastic, where you recoup the costs through quantity. Molds for metal casting, or lower quality soft plastic are much cheaper.

$300-$600 still sounds like sculpting costs more then anything, though.

Woops Totally got my terms mixed up. This is why I will stay away from miniatures in my games
 
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zorin_productions wrote:

The reason I say I have a hard time believing that a large manufacturer like Panda would charge an additional $10K for a mold is because it would be completely uneconomical for anyone want to create a miniatures game. Think about it, if I have 10 unique miniatures in my game, I am already looking at a minimum of $100K just for the miniatures.


People have been throwing the "you need to pay $10k for a mould for plastic figures" number around for ages on this forum and I bet most people have no idea where the figure came from.
(To be clear, I don't know exactly where it came from myself, I don't work in plastics - but I've talked to and read the writings of people who do and people who have arranged minis production for mini-gaming.)

My understanding is that $10k is the realistic price-range you can expect to pay for a high-quality styrene injection mould, which means tooled-out-of-a-block-of-steel, high-labour high-materials-cost. But it also means you can create a sprue with several figures on it, you're not limited to just the one humanoid figure for that sprue, that would be shockingly uneconomical! If you've ever bought plastic figures from GW, for example, you'll know they come on a big frame with five to twenty figures on depending on the level of detail and how poseable/multi-part they are. Often the frame is as big as or bigger than a sheet of paper, and they have cut-points on that they can cut or snap it along into multiple sub-frames to fit it in the box.

The thing is, that you don't need to cast plastic figures using an injection-moulding process these days. Plastics manufacturing technology has advanced, and if you're happy with the figures being not quite so high-detail as GW plastics, you can spin-cast figures in similar moulds to metal casting, which are much, much cheaper to make. Not so durable, but they'll still last you hundreds of shots, and if you're selling that many you probably won't have trouble swallowing the costs of replacement. That's how modern KS projects can afford to have multiple different sculpts in the same game, and that's almost certainly why Panda quoted for the sculpt but didn't bother itemising the mould-making costs. I believe that's how games like Zombicide and Sedition Wars did their minis, for example.

People still make styrene injection moulds because people like GW sell enough figures that it's definitely economical to run them - it literally costs pennies to cast a sprue of figures up and it can be done more or less automatically, most of the money you pay for the minis is the amortised costs of making the mould. If you're selling tens of thousands of copies of those miniatures, the steel mould pays for itself and the higher labour costs of spin-casting would make it more expensive.
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OneManCrafts wrote:
As a modeler, am interested in this point, quite much... Does this means that if there's a custom model to be made, the whole 3,000 copies production does cost you just 300$ - 600$ in the case there are included custom models, or that a custom model in its own costs from 300 to 600?


From what I've understanding based on very limited research just started today and the details in this thread:

The 300-600 estimate previously given was the cost to make a custom sculpt. That is, the DESIGN or ART of the miniature. If you say, "I want a badass barbarian with two axes!" and they design/draw you one and maybe make a prototype, then that's your 300-600 cost. Hence, it can be avoided if you provide your own. But that's a decent price.

This gets you only ONE miniature, however. It's custom, just how you want it, but it's still only one. To make duplicates of this miniature, you need a MOLD. A mold is created using the original sculpt prototype by putting the sculpt in a container and pouring liquid in it. When the liquid hardens, it can be cracked open (or something) and when the original sculpt is removed, it will leave an impression of empty space.

This is essentially another container. When this empty barbarian-shaped is filled with a different type of liquid, the new liquid will pour into a barbarian shape and harden in this form, like those funny ice trays that freeze into different shapes. I think this should cost about 200-400 per mold, and you will need one mold per UNIQUE figure.

So if you need four different miniatures, you will need four different sculpts to use in making four different molds. Once the molds are created, you can create duplicates very cheaply.

Once you have these initial costs set, it's just $X per figure to pay for the liquid plastic or metal and the quality control, where X should be a fairly cheap amount. It will probably cost on the same scale as other game components like pawns or dice at this point.

Keep in mind that you're not just paying for the molds -- but also the manual re-tooling of the machinery each time they need to create a mold or change it, which is, from what I'm told, no small process. In the time it takes to re-tool the machinery, they could be cranking out miniatures so you'll be paying the opportunity cost for all the money they've wasted re-tooling machines for you instead of making miniatures. This is why they require a larger minimum order - they want to make sure it's worth it.

Since the sculpting/molding costs don't go up with the number of total figures (only the number of UNIQUE figures), the more identical figures you make, the cheaper the sculpt/mold costs are (in terms of cost per game).

That officially exhausts all my knowledge on (non-3d printing) miniature making, and i don't know how much of it is accurate but I hope its helpful.

From these numbers, it looks like if you budget about $1000 per unique miniatures, and divide that that be the number of games, you'll get the "miniatures fee" per game. To this value, simply add another nickel or so per specific miniature as if was any other game component.

As always, you could probably reduce most of these values by half if you just need low-qualtiy figures, but double or triple them if you want extremely high quality.
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lordrahvin wrote:
OneManCrafts wrote:
As a modeler, am interested in this point, quite much... Does this means that if there's a custom model to be made, the whole 3,000 copies production does cost you just 300$ - 600$ in the case there are included custom models, or that a custom model in its own costs from 300 to 600?


From what I've understanding based on very limited research just started today and the details in this thread:

The 300-600 estimate previously given was the cost to make a custom sculpt. That is, the DESIGN or ART of the miniature. If you say, "I want a badass barbarian with two axes!" and they design/draw you one and maybe make a prototype, then that's your 300-600 cost. Hence, it can be avoided if you provide your own. But that's a decent price.

This gets you only ONE miniature, however. It's custom, just how you want it, but it's still only one. To make duplicates of this miniature, you need a MOLD. A mold is created using the original sculpt prototype by putting the sculpt in a container and pouring liquid in it. When the liquid hardens, it can be cracked open (or something) and when the original sculpt is removed, it will leave an impression of empty space.

This is essentially another container. When this empty barbarian-shaped is filled with a different type of liquid, the new liquid will pour into a barbarian shape and harden in this form, like those funny ice trays that freeze into different shapes. I think this should cost about 200-400 per mold, and you will need one mold per UNIQUE figure.

So if you need four different miniatures, you will need four different sculpts to use in making four different molds.

Once you have these initial costs set, it's just $X per figure to pay for the liquid plastic or metal and the quality control, where X should be a fairly cheap amount.

Keep in mind that you're not just paying for the molds -- but also the manual re-tooling of the machinery each time they need to create a mold or change it, which is, from what I'm told, no small process. In the time it takes to re-tool the machinery, they could be cranking out miniatures so you'll be paying the opportunity cost for all the money they've wasted re-tooling machines for you instead of making miniatures. This is why they require a larger minimum order - they want to make sure it's worth it.

Since the sculpting/molding costs don't go up with the number of total figures (only the number of UNIQUE figures), the more identical figures you make, the cheaper the sculpt/mold costs are (in terms of cost per game).

That officially exhausts all my knowledge on (non-3d printing) miniature making, and i don't know how much of it is accurate but I hope its helpful.

From these numbers, it looks like if you budget about $1000 per unique miniatures, and divide that that be the number of games, you'll get the "miniatures cost" per game. To this value, simply add another dime or so per miniature as if was any other (high quality) game component.


Thanks for that input, that's kind of how I thought it worked, and certainly makes a lot more sense to do it that way, monetarily speaking. The whole $10K mold thing just sounds outrageous to me, but as Jake explained most of these will come on a big frame which can accommodate 5-20 figures, that certainly makes a lot more economical sense.
 
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zorin_productions wrote:

Thanks for that input, that's kind of how I thought it worked, and certainly makes a lot more sense to do it that way, monetarily speaking. The whole $10K mold thing just sounds outrageous to me, but as Jake explained most of these will come on a big frame which can accommodate 5-20 figures, that certainly makes a lot more economical sense.


Depending on your game, I think a total "miniatures fee" of $10,000 or so would not be unreasonable. A full "miniatures game" would need a lot more because it would involve making more unique figures and they would need above-average detail.
 
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To add some extra information, albeit probably irrelevant trivia rather than all that much use to someone who wants miniatures for their game:

lordrahvin wrote:

A mold is created using the original sculpt prototype by putting the sculpt in a container and pouring liquid in it. When the liquid hardens, it can be cracked open (or something) and when the original sculpt is removed, it will leave an impression of empty space.


To clarify: a mould can be made any number of ways, the important thing is that it has a hollow in the middle the shape of your miniature.

Spin-casting and drop-casting (using rotational acceleration or gravity to fill the mould with liquid casting material, respectively) moulds are often made from rubber, which is poured in a liquid state over the masters, and then vulcanised (made solid through the application of heat) into a solid. Spin-casting and drop-casting moulds are cheap to make because the mould only needs to withstand a small amount of force because small amounts of the liquid casting material are inserted at relatively low speeds (just by pouring them into the mould cavity - while the mould is being spun for spin-casting).

Injection-moulding, on the other hand, involves the liquid plastic being forced into the mould under pressure and very hot. It needs to be hot (and the mould needs to be heated) to ensure that it doesn't cool down so quickly that it solidifies without the mould being full, and it needs to be under pressure to ensure that it gets into all the nooks and crannies of the mould before it cools and solidifies. Thus, injection moulds need to be very rigid and resistant, and thus a material like steel is used. You tend to get better definition on an injection-moulded piece because the pressure the machine exerts is greater than the centrifuge effect on a spin-caster can manage and much greater than simple gravity. You pay for the definition because the mould is harder to make and harder to move and switch out and so on.

lordrahvin wrote:

Once you have these initial costs set, it's just $X per figure to pay for the liquid plastic or metal and the quality control, where X should be a fairly cheap amount. It will probably cost on the same scale as other game components like pawns or dice at this point.


Absolutely the case for plastic. It's not so relevant for board-game purposes, but actually with metal figures (which are to the best of my knowledge pretty much all spin-cast or occasionally drop-cast, which works much better with metal because the molten material is much heavier and therefore carries more inertia and flows into the detail more easily than lightweight plastic) the materials costs are so large that they are the predominant cost of the finished product. This is thanks to the rises of commodity prices of various elements that go into the casting alloy, and is largely the reason that most hobby-gaming companies are increasingly moving towards plastic figures.


lordrahvin wrote:

manual re-tooling of the machinery each time they need to create a mold or change it, which is, from what I'm told, no small process. In the time it takes to re-tool the machinery, they could be cranking out miniatures so you'll be paying the opportunity cost for all the money they've wasted re-tooling machines for you instead of making miniatures.


True for injection moulding, because the machines are largely automated and they just open the mould, pop out a warm sprue periodically, close the mould and carry on. Changing the mould requires unmounting two big lumps of steel and then re-mounting the replacement mould, making sure everything's aligned, and so on.

Spin-casting requires the mould to be taken out of the machine and opened before the miniatures can be removed anyway, so it's trivial to change to a different mould... but then the mould is also smaller, easier, and less hassle to manoeuvre.

Here's a spin-casting mould:

And a spin-casting machine:


While here's an injection mould (for a paperclip, apparently!):

And an injection-moulding machine:


That probably illustrates the cost difference as well as anything. ;-)
(I don't know if spin-casting for plastics uses exactly the same equipment, if it's just the plastic that's different, but as I understand it, the process and costs are substantially similar to metal casting.)
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lordrahvin wrote:
zorin_productions wrote:

Thanks for that input, that's kind of how I thought it worked, and certainly makes a lot more sense to do it that way, monetarily speaking. The whole $10K mold thing just sounds outrageous to me, but as Jake explained most of these will come on a big frame which can accommodate 5-20 figures, that certainly makes a lot more economical sense.


Depending on your game, I think a total "miniatures fee" of $10,000 or so would not be unreasonable. A full "miniatures game" would need a lot more because it would involve making more unique figures and they would need above-average detail.


I guess I am just curious as to how projects like these http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/magecompany/the-amityvil... can manage to create so many highly detailed miniatures in addition to the rest of the game production for only $20K? If anyone else can figure this out please let me know!
 
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caffeinehead wrote:
Man. I'd kill to see a quote of a specific miniature. I love background info of, well... pretty much everything.


And I'm so eager to model a 3D character that would end up in a nice and cool plastic or metal miniature... Even if just to see the photo of it over a table. Sadly I can't use all that time to make it for free, without payment...
(being rich... I would pay to create one or many... )
Having modeled a lot for models to be animated in games... Is the next stage, to see my creations as a real solid thing made out of plastic, metal or whatever.

Magentawolf wrote:
For 10k, you're generally talking tooling and molds for high quality plastic, where you recoup the costs through quantity. Molds for metal casting, or lower quality soft plastic are much cheaper.

$300-$600 still sounds like sculpting costs more then anything, though.


So, this matches all what I have heard. I started hearing everywhere, and also from the field I come from, video game 3D modeling, the usual custom 3D model (for whatever the final purpose), not low polygon count (faster, cheaper), but neither Zbrush detail level, quote was more or less in the 500 - 1000$ range. But IMO, indy pricing goes totally in the 300 - 600 range, more likely being 300 or the like... (surely the practical thing to do is go even quite lower when several minis are to be made from a single customer)

So, the funny thing I am seeing in this, is that the real costly thing of it all is the real production costs... Considered as total, global thing... So that's why 300 bucks is not THE barrier, which I thought... is mostly everything else here explained...

But I had read a lot of times the 10k mold thing. Which would indeed be a total show stopper... But so explained, the other ways do not seem such of a prob. Heck, I have some friends who used to make a living just out of making miniatures -not any more, crisis did hit hard on them for other reasons, very sadly as they owe me money for a website design... but are friends, can't go after them...- and it was profitable enough for them.. They used to work with some sort of light metal. They counted on a guy who had studied in the Fine Arts Career (I was in the painting specialty in that same place, lol) , so it helped a lot. They were interested in the last times in my 3D things, but were mostly dealing with money issues, overall.

It was pretty amazing to check their large place for production. Kind of very primitive and dirty, but effective. They even produced the blisters, manually, there... It was very interesting visiting their place.

Edit: I might be wrong, but maybe the kickstarter projects work a lot like print on demand services? they produce when they receive petitions of purchase, maybe, so they produce with no risk of non-sold items... Maybe is this why it looks as if they are mass producing, but they aren't really? Dunno, excuse my ignorance...



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OneManCrafts wrote:
caffeinehead wrote:
Man. I'd kill to see a quote of a specific miniature. I love background info of, well... pretty much everything.


And I'm so eager to model a 3D character that would end up in a nice and cool plastic or metal miniature... Even if just to see the photo of it over a table. Sadly I can't use all that time to make it for free, without payment...
(being rich... I would pay to create one or many... )
Having modeled a lot for models to be animated in games... Is the next stage, to see my creations as a real solid thing made out of plastic, metal or whatever.

Magentawolf wrote:
For 10k, you're generally talking tooling and molds for high quality plastic, where you recoup the costs through quantity. Molds for metal casting, or lower quality soft plastic are much cheaper.

$300-$600 still sounds like sculpting costs more then anything, though.


So, this matches all what I have heard. I started hearing everywhere, and also from the field I come from, video game 3D modeling, the usual custom 3D model (for whatever the final purpose), not low polygon count (faster, cheaper), but neither Zbrush detail level, quote was more or less in the 500 - 1000$ range. But IMO, indy pricing goes totally in the 300 - 600 range, more likely being 300 or the like... (surely the practical thing to do is go even quite lower when several minis are to be made from a single customer)

So, the funny thing I am seeing in this, is that the real costly thing of it all is the real production costs... Considered as total, global thing... So that's why 300 bucks is not THE barrier, which I thought... is mostly everything else here explained...

But I had read a lot of times the 10k mold thing. Which would indeed be a total show stopper... But so explained, the other ways do not seem such of a prob. Heck, I have some friends who used to make a living just out of making miniatures -not any more, crisis did hit hard on them for other reasons, very sadly as they owe me money for a website design... but are friends, can't go after them...- and it was profitable enough for them.. They used to work with some sort of light metal. They counted on a guy who had studied in the Fine Arts Career (I was in the painting specialty in that same place, lol) , so it helped a lot. They were interested in the last times in my 3D things, but were mostly dealing with money issues, overall.

It was pretty amazing to check their large place for production. Kind of very primitive and dirty, but effective. They even produced the blisters, manually, there... It was very interesting visiting their place.

Edit: I might be wrong, but maybe the kickstarter projects work a lot like print on demand services? they produce when they receive petitions of purchase, maybe, so they produce with no risk of non-sold items... Maybe is this why it looks as if they are mass producing, but they aren't really? Dunno, excuse my ignorance...

You have a good point, maybe they are printing on demand? That is the only logical thing I can think of when looking at a project that has over 82 highly detailed miniatures in their game, and only needs $20K for the entire project. I'd be curious to get feedback from some of these guys.


 
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