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The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: 2 Core Sets for Four Player: Scam? rss

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Sean Richtoff
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So I picked up my two player version of LOTR:LCG and it says I need a second core set to play 3 - 4 players. I thought, fine, whatever. But now that I've played a few rounds - it strikes me, this is just a scam to sell core games right?

I have four decks, so if I'm sticking to the preconstructed ones, I'm good to go with four players - provided I get a D50 to track the threat level for the other players.

If I run out of tokens I can just make more, yeah?

The only reason I'd ACTUALLY need a second core set is to have the two extra cardboard counters, correct?

I guess if I want to buff up my decks and add a few more Galdalfs, I'd need to buy another core - as I doubt there are any ways to get him, otherwise, but that's all it is right?
 
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Malcolm
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aye,

get a bit of paper and a pen and play with 4...

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Nigel McNaughton
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Scam is over the top. But no you don't need a second set. There are however plenty of extra cards you'll want from a second set. Especially once you want to move beyond the pre-constructed decks.
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Sean Richtoff
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I don't actually think scam is over the top. It makes it seem the game is unplayable for 4 people. If you bought two copies up front, took them home, and never wanted to make your own decks, you'd probably be annoyed to discover the only thing you need is two pieces of cardboard from the other box.

Seems like it was marketed to be deceiving. You can fully play 4 players with the contents of one core box. I know people will want to defend it as it's a great game - but it doesn't mean this marketing decision needs to be defended. It is shady.

It seems they could have just added four counters into the core set, and let people enjoy their fully realized four player game.

And, then if people wanted to customize - sure, they can buy more sets.

But - billing it as requiring a second core set, when the only thing you need is a pencil and paper or die to keep track? That's straight up a scam, in order to encourage people to buy extra copies...
 
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Scott Wheelock
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One core set for four players would mean no deck-building and boring intro decks for everyone. It's no scam to suggest that two sets would be a better experience.
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Richard Morris
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It is actually worse than you think. Yes the statement that you need two sets for 4 players is pushing the truth close to breaking point. There are enough cards to go around (just) so the threat dials is the only reason you 'need' a second core set.

When you play a bit more, you will discover that not only are there not 3 of each player card in the core set, but there are 3 of some, 2 of others and only 1 of yet more. And, surprise, surprise, the cards there are only 1 of tend to be good ones you want to have three of.

But scam is too strong, IMHO. Scam implies (at least in this country) dishonest and illegal. I don't think they did anything illegal. I use the word gouging.
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Richard Morris
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swheelock wrote:
One core set for four players would mean no deck-building and boring intro decks for everyone. It's no scam to suggest that two sets would be a better experience.
But spending the money on expansions rather than additional core sets would be a much, much better way of getting a better experience for the same amount of money spent.

And they do not say 'buy two core sets for a better experience' they say you need two core sets for 4 players to play.
 
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Matthew Roskam
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If they had said they could accommodate 4 with one, THAT would have been the scam- not enough threat trackers is hardly the problem. There are not enough cards to build decent decks. Four playing with one core set against Dol Goldur, now that would have been a scam! If you are going to get into this game, you won't regret having 2 cores.
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Greg
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Mwroskam wrote:
If they had said they could accommodate 4 with one, THAT would have been the scam- not enough threat trackers is hardly the problem. There are not enough cards to build decent decks. Four playing with one core set against Dol Goldur, now that would have been a scam! If you are going to get into this game, you won't regret having 2 cores.


+1thumbsup

Heck, I remember when the game first came out and people (not the FFG) said you need 2 core sets even for 2 players so you can have have all that you need for best decks.
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Milen Krastev
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The game is 1-2 player game in the first place. It is you who convert it into 2+ player game. Also, you really don't need 2nd core set, you need more expansions.
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Thanee
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oneyeartrip wrote:
Seems like it was marketed to be deceiving. You can fully play 4 players with the contents of one core box. I know people will want to defend it as it's a great game - but it doesn't mean this marketing decision needs to be defended. It is shady.


While I agree, that they could have worded it a bit better, like "it is useful to get a second Core Set, when playing with three or four players", I really don't think there is anything shady, deceiving or scammy about it.

The game is listed as a 1-2 player game.

It's not like they are going out of their way to make you buy that second Core Set, if you want to play with more than two players. It's just a sidenote, really.


About the 3/2/1 copies of individual cards:

Most of the 1-copy cards are not of the kind where you want three copies of. There are only very few, that are like that... pretty much only one: Unexpected Courage.

And the problem with the Core Set is, that they cannot simply pack three copies of every card, because they only have a certain card count to fill, in order to make their price point.

Also note, that the first LCGs (AGoT, CoC, WH:I) had expansion packs, where half the cards only had a single copy of inside. They quickly changed that model, due to the demand of the players. So they certainly are aware of it, and are listening to it.

But for the Core Set, they have to make it more universal than just putting every card in there thrice. It has to work for the casual players, who just buy one set and nothing else, as well as more hardcore fans, who want every option available to them.

The only thing I am missing in their product range is an "upgrade kit" to get the cards needed to have three copies of each and two more Threat counters and some more tokens. They probably could have made that a deluxe-size expansion. That would have been perfect.

Bye
Thanee
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Woody Taylor
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Scam?

Selling the game at an enticing price, collecting the money, then not sending you anything, and instead, they just take your money and run... that would be a scam.

No need to change the definition of words.

Yes, you *can* play 4-player with 1 core set. Yes, it's a much better experience to have two core sets. IMHO.

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Rob Rob
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In the military, when someone says "hey, why don't we do this!?" And it doesn't work out, we say they had a visit from the "Good Idea Fairy"

I think by reducing the number of certain cards in the core game, FFG thought they had a win/win. It lowered the cost of the core and would lure new players into buying additional sets (literally needing three cores to complete a full base game, with tons of wasted cards). I think it would have been just as profitable, much more elegant and caused fewer posts such as this if they had simply come out with a "core expansion set" bringing everything up to three, two additional threat counters and maybe a "premium" resin player turn marker; $19.95
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Pauli Vinni
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I have 8 core sets at this moment.. So two core set is not scum IMHO :-)
If you use easy mode, then one core and expansions is just fine. If you use normal rules, it is handy to have extra Gandalfs and some other good cards more that 3, so that it can be used in several decks. But the game is very playable allso with only one core set, but two is better. It is nice to have extra tokens and even tracker and having more of those most powerfull cards is not bad thing neither!
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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I only play solo, so I think I would have been scammed if I had to buy a 4-player core at double price.
 
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Hornless Unicorn
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And another 100GG on this
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Not a scam. In order to get the full experience you'll need 3 core sets per player. So ideally a 4 player game would need 12 core sets so that each player has the full deck-building options.

You 'technically' can play with just the core set a few times. If you want an even remotely good game you'll need to buy more core sets/expansions.

You'll also need multiple copies of the core set per person in order to get a complete deck-building experience. Again, no scam here, there is a list of what cards are included on their website.

This is how Fantasy Flight games sells their products. It is a common practice in all their LCG's, and it's a very profitable business model.

I like to think that FFG's 'core' sets are just a demo. If you like them, you'll need to invest in the 'full' game. If this is something that bothers you, you might want to stay away from their products.

 
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Matt Jolly
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AnnuverScotinExile wrote:

But scam is too strong, IMHO. Scam implies (at least in this country) dishonest and illegal. I don't think they did anything illegal. I use the word gouging.


Boofus wrote:
I only play solo, so I think I would have been scammed if I had to buy a 4-player core at double price.


I agree with @Richard above, scam is a strong word. You pay what you pay for a game that clearly says it is for 1-2 players. In fact I'm not sure I would even call it gouging; it is clearly sold as a 1 - 2 player game. Where's the what in being surprised that you have to pay more for more players? I think that you are in fact paying for a different game.

Perhaps I am also biased by the fact that the core game, in the UK at least, is priced well inside the bottom quartile of imported games prices; compared with getting two base sets of Commands & Colors: Ancients to play Epic, which was the case for a while, having to buy two core sets of this is a far smaller investment.

Compare also with Call of Cthulhu: The Card Game which is similarly priced and really has to be pushed hard for a 3+ player (or solo) game and I know which I think has the highest value for money. But like all these things, it's a matter of taste and interpretation I guess.

Cheers,

matt
 
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Tim Franklin
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thesleeper7 wrote:
You 'technically' can play with just the core set a few times. If you want an even remotely good game you'll need to buy more core sets/expansions.


What's "a few", and why "technically"?

I've played more than 20 games with a single core set so far - all against Passage Through Mirkwood, and I'm still having fun! So with two more scenarios still to try, I'd argue that's more than "a few". I own plenty of games I haven't played 20 times, period.

 
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Andy Leber
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Has anyone had any real experience trying 4p with the core set? I've only just picked it up and played (2p) twice, but my assumption as to why you couldn't do 4p wasn't to do with threat trackers, or even decks (as there are obviously 4), but that you'd be drawing 4 encounter cards every turn. I assumed you might run into trouble there. Would you possibly be exhausting the deck too often in that case?
 
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The box does say 1-2 players, so I think this is fair. Not including 3 of every card, however, does seem a bit shady. FFG's LCGs were the only games you needed to buy more than one copy of. Now, other games that follow the same model are doing it, such as Mage Wars. Perhaps it's not something that gives pause to a CCG player, but it does to me, as I am primarily a board game who is used to buying only one of a game.

I'd rather pay a higher price for a full set of cards, and that would still be lower than buying two core sets. They would've needed to add about 65 cards (rough count I just did from CardGameDB) to go from 226 to ~290. Since the card count is close to the number of cards in an AP I wish they'd release a ~$15 MSRP pack of the cards you need to complete your set. As it is, I just proxy the cards since I am stubborn and would not buy a second Core Set.

P. S. Does anyone in the business know if adding 65 cards will add that much to the cost, given it's done in bulk, and they already have the artwork for the cards?

Edit: I just realized this is an old thread. Oh well.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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tim-pelican wrote:
thesleeper7 wrote:
You 'technically' can play with just the core set a few times. If you want an even remotely good game you'll need to buy more core sets/expansions.


What's "a few", and why "technically"?

I've played more than 20 games with a single core set so far - all against Passage Through Mirkwood, and I'm still having fun! So with two more scenarios still to try, I'd argue that's more than "a few". I own plenty of games I haven't played 20 times, period.



I think you are the exception rather than the rule.
It's true that different people will have a different sense of how many cards/scenarios they "need" before the game feels "complete" and they don't feel the need to collect. For me, I felt the core box came with only about half the cards I would need for it to be collect.

With Race For The Galaxy, I have the core set and two expansions and the game ALMOST feels "complete" - I think the third expansion I buy may be my last. Unfortunately, I haven't hit close to that point with Lord of the Rings yet.

 
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Richard Morris
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honeyralmond wrote:
The box does say 1-2 players, so I think this is fair. Not including 3 of every card, however, does seem a bit shady. FFG's LCGs were the only games you needed to buy more than one copy of. Now, other games that follow the same model are doing it, such as Mage Wars. Perhaps it's not something that gives pause to a CCG player, but it does to me, as I am primarily a board game who is used to buying only one of a game.

I'd rather pay a higher price for a full set of cards, and that would still be lower than buying two core sets. They would've needed to add about 65 cards (rough count I just did from CardGameDB) to go from 226 to ~290. Since the card count is close to the number of cards in an AP I wish they'd release a ~$15 MSRP pack of the cards you need to complete your set. As it is, I just proxy the cards since I am stubborn and would not buy a second Core Set.

P. S. Does anyone in the business know if adding 65 cards will add that much to the cost, given it's done in bulk, and they already have the artwork for the cards?

Edit: I just realized this is an old thread. Oh well.
The significant point is that they did not do it, and they are not going to do it. If they did it now, there would be lots of less than delighted people who went out and bought multiple core sets because they had not produced the 'top up' pack. So now they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

And to those that basically say: it's an LCG, what else did you expect, I have to point out that the very nature of the licence, and the way they position the game (playable out of the box, deck building is an 'advanced game' (yeah, right), and so on) meant that they were deliberately going for tradition CCG/LCG players AND players new to the genre. And it is those noobs that are badly treated by this. In my case I have invested significantly in the game despite, not because of FFG, but I doubt I will ever buy another game from them.
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Brook Gentlestream
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I agreed with everything you said up to the point of not buying another FFG game. It's true that FFG does seem to be experimenting right now with various revenue methods, which is somewhat disturbing, but they are a good company that produces good games. And out of the box, especially considering its low price (by FFG standards), Lord of the Rings is a pretty good game. But I would stay away from any of their "collectable" products if you don't want to be part of FFG experiments.

Their large-box board games are still some of the best on the market, however.

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Andy Leber
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honeyralmond wrote:

Edit: I just realized this is an old thread. Oh well.


Yeah, my fault. Only a couple months old though. Saw no reason to start a new thread.
 
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