Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
34 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Ideological Turing Test - An RSP Experiment rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like to think of myself as an intelligent person who understands not merely his own point of view but also that of other people. Of course, that's the sort of thing that's extremely easy to be mistaken about. In practice, I have a tendency to fill in the gaps in my knowledge of how another person thinks with my own ideas about things. The resulting structure tends to be messy and unstable, and I wonder to myself how anyone could possibly believe it. But of course, they don't; no one believes in such a thing- it is simply an amalgamation of ideas I invented in my own mind and attributed to someone else.

They say a good way to test your understanding of a subject is to see if you can argue both sides of the topic convincingly. For controversial subjects, this can be a difficult proposition. If your audience agrees with you, it is far less likely they will vet your ideas in any meaningful way.

Having lurked in RSP for some time before first posting here, I wonder sometimes how much of the arguments here are pure misunderstanding. How well can we really understand each other? How much progress can our discussions truly make?

In an attempt to study some of these issues, I would like to propose perhaps the first, perhaps the only BGG RSP Ideological Turing Test.

The idea is fairly simple. We'll get a few volunteers, half of each from opposing sides on an issue. For simplicity, I would suggest four, two on each side, but we could do more. Each person will write a short piece (a few paragraphs, no more than about 500 words) about an issue (to be chosen later). However, half of the people on each side of the issue will write a piece supporting the opposite side. These pieces will be written privately and geekmailed to the moderator of the event (me, I suppose, unless someone else wants to do it), who will then post each piece without saying who wrote it. The RSP community will then attempt to determine if the piece was written by someone who favors that side of the issue, or favors the other.

If possible, I think it would be interesting to record results in a poll, broken down by where people fall on the issue being discussed.

Possible issues that could be discussed:

- atheists and Christians discuss the origin of ethics
- pro-life vs. pro-choice
- Free markets vs. socialism

etc.

Would anyone be interested in participating in such an event, either as a writer or as someone who tries to unravel who wrote which piece?
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave G
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
El Chupacabratwurst
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
twomillionbucks wrote:
I like to think of myself as an intelligent person who understands not merely his own point of view but also that of other people. Of course, that's the sort of thing that's extremely easy to be mistaken about. In practice, I have a tendency to fill in the gaps in my knowledge of how another person thinks with my own ideas about things. The resulting structure tends to be messy and unstable, and I wonder to myself how anyone could possibly believe it. But of course, they don't; no one believes in such a thing- it is simply an amalgamation of ideas I invented in my own mind and attributed to someone else.

They say a good way to test your understanding of a subject is to see if you can argue both sides of the topic convincingly. For controversial subjects, this can be a difficult proposition. If your audience agrees with you, it is far less likely they will vet your ideas in any meaningful way.

Having lurked in RSP for some time before first posting here, I wonder sometimes how much of the arguments here are pure misunderstanding. How well can we really understand each other? How much progress can our discussions truly make?

In an attempt to study some of these issues, I would like to propose perhaps the first, perhaps the only BGG RSP Ideological Turing Test.

The idea is fairly simple. We'll get a few volunteers, half of each from opposing sides on an issue. For simplicity, I would suggest four, two on each side, but we could do more. Each person will write a short piece (a few paragraphs, no more than about 500 words) about an issue (to be chosen later). However, half of the people on each side of the issue will write a piece supporting the opposite side. These pieces will be written privately and geekmailed to the moderator of the event (me, I suppose, unless someone else wants to do it), who will then post each piece without saying who wrote it. The RSP community will then attempt to determine if the piece was written by someone who favors that side of the issue, or favors the other.

If possible, I think it would be interesting to record results in a poll, broken down by where people fall on the issue being discussed.

Possible issues that could be discussed:

- atheists and Christians discuss the origin of ethics
- pro-life vs. pro-choice
- Free markets vs. socialism

etc.

Would anyone be interested in participating in such an event, either as a writer or as someone who tries to unravel who wrote which piece?


Definitely in. This could be fun.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd be more interested in say a thread of people in RSP simultaneously presenting both sides of an argument and basically (if they're "playing fair") give genuinely good arguments for the vie they oppose, one they can respect even if not agree with.

EDIT:
Otherwise, I'm in.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grand Admiral Thrawn
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sure, sounds cool.

Does the poll measure who the community thought wrote it, or just their position on the issue? Also, maybe you can have a poll asking if people were swayed by the arguments (though seems unlikely).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
einsteinidahosu wrote:
Sure, sounds cool.

Does the poll measure who the community thought wrote it, or just their position on the issue? Also, maybe you can have a poll asking if people were swayed by the arguments (though seems unlikely).


My plan was simply to ask who the community thought had written the piece.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My objection to that approach is that my religious views would be rather distinctive and I could make them a case for atheism.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Walker
United States
Birmingham
Alabama
flag msg tools
"The significance of a person's life is determined by the story they believe themselves to be in." - Wendell Berry "If nothing lies beyond the pale of death, then nothing of value lies before it." - SMBC
badge
Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song, the joy of my heart and the boast of my tongue. Thy free grace alone, from the first to the last, has won my affection and bound my soul fast.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
My objection to that approach is that my religious views would be rather distinctive and I could make them a case for atheism.


I had an idea that there would be three polls- one for Christians to try and identify if a Christian or atheist wrote each piece, one for atheists, and one for everyone who's not either, to give an example. There are weaknesses with shoving everyone else in the "other" category but I haven't thought of a better way to do it. Of course, you would be free to post your own views, opinion, and comments in the thread normally.

I do like your idea for an "Argue two sides of an issue" thread. Were you thinking a single thread for that, or a thread dedicated to people arguing both sides of a designated issue?

I think there's some benefit of posting the pieces anonymously, though, since that way people's knowledge of the writer won't color their view of the results.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gary Tanner
United States
Logan
Utah
flag msg tools
BryceCon Game Convention Jan 15-18 in Southern Utah www.brycecon.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It'd be interesting.. some people say that you can't really, and intelligently, debate a point unless you could debate it from the other side as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
Sure, what the hell.

I like arguing both sides of a position.

Darilian
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
twomillionbucks wrote:
I had an idea that there would be three polls- one for Christians to try and identify if a Christian or atheist wrote each piece, one for atheists, and one for everyone who's not either, to give an example.


And there you've immediately shown that things are rarely binary. You've got two categories of writer, but three of reader. And ignoring for the moment that Christian is not the whole of religious, even within Christianity there's a massive range. I can easily imagine a mainstream Christian in English terms finding it harder to argue for an extreme fundamentalist (in the popular use of the term, I'm not doing theology here) Christianity than for atheism. (The fundamentalist might well start inventing terms like Christian In Name Only for some members of the CofE.)

I don't intend to participate, but I can say that of opinions I disagree with, some I respect, some I don't but could probably pretend to, and some are far out nutcase opinions (or worse) I wouldn't even pretend to have anything but scorn for.

And I think that's right. I could Godwin this thread by giving the obvious example of opinions not worth respect, but you don't have to go that far.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R. Frazier
United States
West Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
A man learns little by little in battle. Take this battle experience and become a man who can’t be beaten
badge
This flag says we will fight until only our bones are left.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
I had an idea that there would be three polls- one for Christians to try and identify if a Christian or atheist wrote each piece, one for atheists, and one for everyone who's not either, to give an example.


And there you've immediately shown that things are rarely binary. You've got two categories of writer, but three of reader. And ignoring for the moment that Christian is not the whole of religious, even within Christianity there's a massive range. I can easily imagine a mainstream Christian in English terms finding it harder to argue for an extreme fundamentalist (in the popular use of the term, I'm not doing theology here) Christianity than for atheism. (The fundamentalist might well start inventing terms like Christian In Name Only for some members of the CofE.)

I don't intend to participate, but I can say that of opinions I disagree with, some I respect, some I don't but could probably pretend to, and some are far out nutcase opinions (or worse) I wouldn't even pretend to have anything but scorn for.

And I think that's right. I could Godwin this thread by giving the obvious example of opinions not worth respect, but you don't have to go that far.


I'm not going to participate either, but for those who enjoy this kind of thing, I hope you enjoy this instance of it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
Engineers and mathematicians are generally terrible sophists.

Darilian
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
My only advice would be to make the resolution that is presented be reasonably tight and focused. Not 'Free Market vs Socialism', but specific- Can an unregulated Free Market provide universal Health Care coverage? Is taxation a form of violence inflicted by the majority upon the minority? Should the US intervene militarily in Syria in order to stem civilian casualities?

My point is-

1) Set up the issue at hand in the form of a question.
2) Make the issue very binary, with good arguments for either/or. Try to avoid a resolution where a 'hard' position on one side is generally better than a 'soft' position on the other side. You want a sense of balance there. Also, to be fair, you should avoid controversies where one sides position is generally held to be based upon a fundamental fallacy or misunderstanding; for instance, 9/11 Trutherism, or Evolution/Creationism.
3) Make the issue very specific.

Darilian
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Destiny's got her hand way, way up in their puppets! It's an unpleasant tingling! The deepest of wriggles!
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
Spoon!
badge
Well, once again we find that clowning and anarchy don't mix.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I will not argue in favor of cauliflower. That shit is evil. And poison.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc P
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Gloomhaven is a great niche game
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, that and Jessica Alba are like the only things I've ever agreed with you about. OK, and peanut butter cups.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Destiny's got her hand way, way up in their puppets! It's an unpleasant tingling! The deepest of wriggles!
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
Spoon!
badge
Well, once again we find that clowning and anarchy don't mix.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What about the sheer awesomeness of Jarred drunk-explaining game rules? I think we're in agreement about that.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Darilian wrote:
Engineers and mathematicians are generally terrible sophists.

Darilian

I'm a mathematical physicist. Whadaya think?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
twomillionbucks wrote:
whac3 wrote:
My objection to that approach is that my religious views would be rather distinctive and I could make them a case for atheism.


I had an idea that there would be three polls- one for Christians to try and identify if a Christian or atheist wrote each piece, one for atheists, and one for everyone who's not either, to give an example. There are weaknesses with shoving everyone else in the "other" category but I haven't thought of a better way to do it. Of course, you would be free to post your own views, opinion, and comments in the thread normally.

I do like your idea for an "Argue two sides of an issue" thread. Were you thinking a single thread for that, or a thread dedicated to people arguing both sides of a designated issue?

I think there's some benefit of posting the pieces anonymously, though, since that way people's knowledge of the writer won't color their view of the results.

I'd been thinking either single thread or a group of threads with one common one for general commentary.

As Dearlove points out, thing's aren't binary necessarily. So I would for example discuss the idea of the existence of various types of god-concepts but I've done close enough to that before it'd be obvious who it was.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rusty McFisticuffs
United States
Arcata
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You want to get religious, have me and mistermarino argue opposite sides of whether Napoleon's Triumph is a super-fun game.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasper
Netherlands
Leiden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In. (Although spelling and grammar will give me away, more likely than not)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgium
flag msg tools
Meaningless means there's a strong limit to how much I can mess up!
badge
This overtext is not in use.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If the timing works out, I'll give it a go. But as Darilian said, specificity is probably key.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
nothing but static
New Zealand
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
twomillionbucks wrote:

- Free markets vs. socialism


free markets and socialism are not diametrically opposed.

Socialism does not require a command economy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgium
flag msg tools
Meaningless means there's a strong limit to how much I can mess up!
badge
This overtext is not in use.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's also a distinction between arguing for a point you don't believe in and arguing from someone else's point of view.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Nomad
Netherlands
Den Bosch
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When I was a HS freshman joining the debate team, we all had to fill out a 40+ question survey with likert scales to express our views on 'the issues.' For the next three years, no one got to debate something they strongly supported.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tommynomad wrote:
When I was a HS freshman joining the debate team, we all had to fill out a 40+ question survey with likert scales to express our views on 'the issues.' For the next three years, no one got to debate something they strongly supported.


That's how it'll be here too, so lie your ass off.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.