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Subject: Shipment from SanSan vs ToL rss

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Mike Nunes
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I'm currently running an NBN: TWiY* FA deck, and was excited about Operation from SanSan. It does the same thing as Trick of Light does, but for cheaper. Granted, it's a double, but I think it has it's advantages.

1. ToL is 3 influence, and you need an advanceable card, which is usually Ice Wall for it's low influence. So, 3x of each is 12 total, and that's all there is on this ID. Using SfSS, I think this will really cheapen the cost of advancing. NBN's ICE is rather weak in my opinion, and the only good ones are really expensive to rez. I'm running a really lean deck, taking advantage of the non-biotic labor combos. I can usually FA an agenda for a total of 4 cards (two previous advanced creds on an ice wall, 1 for ToL and one for the reg advance.)

2. NBN's ICE is rather weak in my opinion, and the only good ones are really expensive to rez. I'm running a really lean deck, taking advantage of the non-biotic labor combos. I can usually FA an agenda for a total of 4 cards (two previous advanced creds on an ice wall, 1 for ToL and one for the reg advance.) Using SfSS, you can use the freed up influence for better ICE. I would love Archer in this deck.

What are your thoughts? ToL or SfSS
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Lysander
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Quote:
It does the same thing as Trick of Light does, but for cheaper.


I'll cut you off right here. They don't even come close to doing the same thing.
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Christopher MacLeod
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The huge difference between Trick of Light and Shipment from SanSan is that Trick of Light lets you score a 3/2 from hand and Shipment does not. The cards aren't comparable at all.

If anything, Shipment from SanSan replaces (or counts as additional copies of) Beanstalk Royalties.

Shipment is a 0 cost way to net 2 credits from advancing. Beanstalk is a 0 cost way to net 2 credits over clicking for a credit.
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Ber -
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If it's not clear why Shipment from SanSan is different, it's because its a Double, so it takes two clicks to play. Two clicks for Two advancements is not fast advance.
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Mike Nunes
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LOL wow I got some heat for this one. You all make good points though. Sounds like it would make for a better Rush deck. Unless you have a rezed SanSan. I'm going to test it out, and see how it goes...after the tournament this Monday
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Not even remotely the same effect. One is a fast advance card, and one is an economy card.
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mplain
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Looks like Alex really does tend to answer posts without reading comments
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Ben Finkel
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The caveat to the above points is that a scored Efficiency Committee does let you use this as a Fast Advance card.
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Alex Rockwell
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mplain wrote:
Looks like Alex really does tend to answer posts without reading comments


Not true. I read "It does the same thing as Trick of Light does, but for cheaper". Which is clearly not the case, it does an entirely different thing.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Azeltir wrote:
The caveat to the above points is that a scored Efficiency Committee does let you use this as a Fast Advance card.


Which makes Shipment from SanSan amazing for HBFA decks. But doesnt cause it to become a fast advance card for TWIY decks.
 
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Grish Noren
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Part of me hopes this is mike from I.B. Cause then I think I was the one who inspired this deck. Oh well if its not.


For what it's worth, I plan on running both TOL and shipment from san san when I swing back to NBN. My deck got very unfocused towards the end of its life, but here are my thoughts on why shipment from SanSan is really really good if not the best operation in the game for advancing.

1) The best agenda in the game loves it. You can score your last 3-2 from zero credits with astroscript; which is awesome.

2) You can also score breaking news out of hand without expending credits; another awesome feeling. Possibly big brothering or killing a resource off the excess tags if you let breaking news sit while hoping to land a replacements.

3) Ice Wall. Pumping icewall without using or needing credits can be huge. There were times I psychographics an icewall just to lock R&D down, but I'd much prefer this option; especially if an account syphon has recently hit.

4) Obviously: shipment from sansan is great with sansan city grid. Having to spend 6 to rez this thing sometimes puts scoring a turn or more away. Shipment brings the fast back into fast advance, making sansan a likely target much earlier. It also means that SS-CG is an even better rez target for your credits during an account syphon. It doesn't matter if you have to go to zero if you have an agenda and shipment.

5) TOL; Finally this is a great partner for TOL. You can use your ss-shipment where you need it most; where those advancements will do work, and then TOL them later. A 5-3 agenda that sat on a grid for a turn is a viable target with two TOL's usually; same with a 4/2 that just sat normally. With TOL & SfSS these agendas are scorable in a single turn for an additional 3 clicks, but an investment of only 1 additional credit.

6) Jackson; Jackson will bring back SfSS and TOL enabling even more scoring.

7) Tracing; NBN wants to trace and that means NBN wants money. If NBN doesn't have to sink money into advancing, then NBN can put that into its more expensive ice that tend to be really effective or put it into tracing and causing damage.

The thing to remember is that SfSS turns on TOL; but it is not a fast advance card. Playing SfSS and an agenda won't get you past the normal 2 turn barrier for agenda scoring. It will keep your money safe

SfSS is utility. It is economy. It allows you to play when you're up against the zero-lower-bound. SfSS is a card that makes your opponents play differently against you.
 
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Adam Perry
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instead of sfss VERSUS ToL, i think these cards work great in tandem!
 
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Grish Noren
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By the way, the clicks math on TOL says you need to spend this much to make it active with a 3/2, I ignore click to draw as draw is mandatory with corps making drawing cheaper than it is for a runner:

TOL no SfSS
(1) Play agenda: 1 click
(2) Advance agenda: 2 click (money & advance)
(4) Advance other: 4 clicks (money & advance, assuming install of other is useful and not a burden)
(3) Play TOL: 1 click & 1 credit & 1 click to gain the credit
--------------
10

TOL with SfSS
(1) Play agenda
(2) Advance Agenda
(2) SfSS other
(3) Play TOL
--------------
8

So, it increases efficiency by 2 clicks.

Biotic no SfSS: (still 3/2 agenda)
(1) Play agenda
(8) Play Biotic Labor
(6) Advance Agenda
---------
15

Biotic with SfSS
(1) Play agenda
(8) Play Biotic labor
(4) Advance using SfSS
-----------
13

SanSan works similarly:
SSCG no SfSS
(1) Play SSCG
(12) Rez SSCG
(1) Play agenda
(4) Advance Agenda
-----------
18

SSCG with SfSS
(1) Play SSCG
(12) Rez SSCG
(1) Play agenda
(2) Advance Agenda using SfSS
--------
16

=============================

Basically,SfSS TOL using only 8 clicks worth of work, a little more than two turns and other fast advance targets use much more. The downside is using up more deck slots, the up side is needing a lot less dedication over time and with money to your winning strategy.
 
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Fake Name
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Why do you ignore the click to draw, you have two cards vs 1 ? Why do you ignore the click to draw the other asset, and the click to install aswell ?

Your comparisons points are pretty stranges if you remove the click draw from a 2 cards combo and try to compare with a 4 cards combo.
Not to mention you need to wait 4 turns for the 4 card combo to work if you want to count like this.

We'd better count as x+y.

I've got :
TOL no SfSS
(1+1) Play agenda: 1 click + draw
(2) Advance agenda: 2 click (money & advance)
(5+1) Advance other: 4 clicks + click draw + click instal
(2+1) Play TOL: 1 click & 1 click to gain the credit + click draw
--------------
10+3 (with 3 click draw and 4 click credit so this can be 6+3 aswell)

TOL with SfSS
(1+1) Play agenda
(2) Advance Agenda
(3+2) SfSS other (click draw other, click install other, click draw sfss, click click play sfss)
(2+1) Play TOL
--------------
8+4 (with 4 click draw and 1 click credit, could be 7+4)

So, it increases efficiency by 1 click.

Biotic no SfSS: (still 3/2 agenda)
(1+1) Play agenda
(5+1-2) Play Biotic Labor
(6) Advance Agenda
---------
10+2 (with 2 click draw and 7 click credit, or 3+2)

Biotic with SfSS
(1+1) Play agenda
(2) Advance Agenda
(5+1-2) Play Biotic labor
(2+1) Advance using SfSS
-----------
8+3 (with 3 click draw and 5 click credit, or 3+3)

SanSan works similarly:
SSCG no SfSS
(1+1) Play SSCG
(6) Rez SSCG
(1+1) Play agenda
(4) Advance Agenda
-----------
12+2 (with 2 click draw and 8 click credit, 4+2)

SSCG with SfSS
(1+1) Play SSCG
(6) Rez SSCG
(1+1) Play agenda
(2+1) Advance Agenda using SfSS
--------
10+3 (with 3 click draw and 6 click credit, 4+3)


And all of this is versus :
(1+1) Play agenda
(6) Advance agenda
--------
7+1 (with 1 click draw and 3 click credit, or 4+1)

and
(1+1) Play agenda
(2) Advance agenda
(2+1) Advance using SfSS
--------
5+2 (with 2 click draw and 1 click credit, or 4+2)

or
(1+1) Play agenda
(1+1) Play Beanstalk
(3) Advance agenda
--------
5+2 (with 2 click draw and 0 click credit, or 5+2)

So, I can't really see your point if you're saying lower is better.

SfSS is an economy card with the same efficiency as a beanstalk that was transformed in advancements with a lot less flexibility, for the same influence cost. Unless playing Efficiency Comitee to use it as a fast ad card, this is a bad splash vs beanstalk imo.
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Grish Noren
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You draw cards no matter what as the corp; it is not an expenditure you have to make. Yes, there is time involved; but as long as you are willing to make an appropriate number of your 49 the needed cards and you account for probability, you can use them together.

The only point you're making is that needing more cards means you need more cards. This won't effect clicks or money if you draw naturally. And if you aren't drawing naturally, you ought to be using a card like anonymous tip or Jackson to change the calculus so that it's actually efficient to do so.
 
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Fake Name
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I edited to put this as x+y score you want to watch them as having card in hand or not and seeing the second number as the minimum turn you have to wait in a perfect world.

I also put the credit out because you also have a variety of credit engine in play before playing a drawing engine.

I also really have no idea of how you count Biotic and sansan cg.
 
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C Spiekerman
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I just played this card today in an NBN fast-advance deck and it seems *really* good.

People are saying that this is an economy card, equivalent to beanstalks. I guess the idea there is that it takes a click to play beanstalks, whereas SfSS is basically a free click (like modded). But what makes this card so great is not that SfSS + 1 click = 3 = beanstalks. What is great is that SfSS = 2 credits for 0 clicks. Very important when you've got the restriction of 3 clicks/turn.

What is so cool about SfSS is that the NBN FA magic numbers (8 when unrezzed San San on board, 7 with Biotic Labor in hand) are now reduced by two. That seems very nice, and I think is going to change the styles of play for playing or playing against fast advance.
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