United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So after seeing the latest version of the FAQ with a ton of Restricted cards and then pages (literally) of cards that now have had the LIMITED keyword virtually added to them via the FAQ, I'm almost back to the point of wanting the drop the stupid game again, entirely.

I mean, seriously, designers...do you even play the game? Do you understand how utterly annoying it is to fans to have to try to remember every card that now has had the LIMITED keyword magically added via a FAQ update? Do you, seriously? Because I don't think you do. Now you'll either need to take a pen and write it on the cards (what I'm thinking of doing), or bring along the printout to constantly reference (because nothing says "FUN" like constantly checking the rules over and over), or just memorizing all the changed cards.

Honestly, what a disaster. angry I think I now can see why my favorite (well at this point "favorite" might be stretching it a bit) LCG hasn't been the most popular one on the block.

Heck, it'd be easier and less of a hassle if they just banned all those cards. At least I could then pull those cards and keep them off the side or something.

The only other solution I can come up with right now is to make a special binder and to get clear tape that can take typed text to add to the changed cards (still an AWFUL solution that NO fan of the game should have to resort to).

Frankly speaking FFG should release fixed cards for fans to request.

This is just ridiculous at this point. shake
8 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
As proof, here's a helpful list of all the cards that now have had text "magically" added to them via the FAQ:

15 cards in total:

116 Warpstone Excavation
Should read: “Limit 1 per
deck...”

18 Order in Chaos
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

97 Offering to Hekarti
Offering to Hekarti is Unique.

82 Fists of Mork
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

83 Pigeon Bombs
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

84 Convocation of Eagles
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

112 Doubling the Guard
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

10 Gathering the Winds
Gathering the Winds is Unique.

38 Snotling Invasion
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

50 Red Arrow Coach
Should read: “...That unit may
then move onto a quest in that
zone, if able. (Limit once per
turn.)”

56 Drakenhof Castle
Should read “Undead only.”

57 Arcane Power
Should have the “Limited”
keyword and read: “If you
control a legend or Artefact
support card, return target card
(other than an Arcane Power)
from your discard pile to your
hand.”

20 Muster for War
Should read: “Limit 1 per
deck...”

48 Devoted to Taal
Should have the “Limited”
keyword.

120 End Times
Should read: “Limit 1 per deck

=================================== shake


And here, just for even more confusing fun are all the cards that are currently Restricted, meaning you can't have more than one specific card from this list in your deck at a time. So if you have, for example, Warpstone Excavation in your deck, you can't also have, say, Judgement of Verena in your deck simultaneously.

10 Dwarf Ranger
49 Judgement of Verena
119 & 57 Innovation
116 Warpstone Excavation
2 Mining Tunnels
5 Derricksburg Forge
25 Wilhelm of the Osterknacht
42 Reclaiming the Fallen
63 Friedrich Hemmler
7 Rodrik’s Raiders
37 Sacrifice to Khaine
53 Sorcerer of Tzeentch
26 Judgement of Loec
6 The Unending Horde
12 Mounted Marauders
60 Beastman Incursion
75 Temple of Spite
79 Pleasure Cults
20 Muster for War
41 Wurrzag
120 End Times


=========================== shake

I'm all for keeping the game balanced but there's a point when you simply have to be SMART about it and find ways that don't make it a huge, frikkin' hassle when building a deck or playing people.

So there are now 15 cards that have had words magically added to them and another 21 cards that you can't play together with each other. (And that leaves out the single banned card)

What a hassle.

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clement Tey
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If you use sleeves, I think the best bet would be to stick a little post-it with the errata in it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Llewellyn
United Kingdom
Telford
Shropshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
princemousey wrote:
If you use sleeves, I think the best bet would be to stick a little post-it with the errata in it.


If you have bought every pack that FFG have released for this LCG and calculate the total cost of all the packs, would you still feel it acceptable to be sticking post-it notes on your expensive LCG ?

WHLCG for me has lost its way and given up on its fan base, its just out to make money out of people with OCD. Other than the 4 player expansion pack this LCG has not done much for me for a while now, and wytefangs comments are justified in my opinion.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Schwarz
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, since I don't play tournaments, mostly I just ignore the errata. If it was fixing genuine errors with the cards, or if FFG was releasing errata packs of reprinted cards (and not charging us for them), I might be okay with it. But, as it is, I'm having a blast, and screw the errata list.

EDIT: Also, they just effectively banned Drakenhof Castle until Hidden Kingdoms comes out...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rauli Kettunen
Finland
Oulu
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hadn't played W:I in over 2 years, partly because I hadn't bothered with the new expansions, partly because of the issues raised in this thread. Finally managed to sell my collection couple of weeks ago.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Kayati
United States
Worthington
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Agreed. Lucky for me that I don't play this competitively, so I just ignore the errata. I don't have a huge amount of cards, but I also won't be buying any more.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ste gee
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It is annoying.

I love this game and although I can remember a few I do get concerned if I do forget whether I would be seen as a cheat or along them lines

Perhaps when FF finally get it all right they should release a correction pack of some kind with the correct errata.

In my opinion, it all boils down to testing and FF have a tendency of not testing games thoroughly as they should (don't get me started on Mansions of Madness). This may come down to bonuses on releasing products on time which isn't good for the customer...however this is just speculation.

It wont put me off playing W:I or purchasing their expansions.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Shore
United States
Georgetown
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
All card games suffer from this. I just expect it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max POWER
United States
Duluth
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally, I LIKE the errata. It keeps the game fresh, interesting and balanced. SO glad I don't have to see warpstone excavation on the first turn of EVERY game of Invasion that I ever play anymore. I'm glad that FFG takes an active interest in their game. As far as "getting it right the first time", with as many cards that have been released, I can't even imagine how many playtesters it would require over how many hundreds of games to find all of the potentially broken loopholes and combos of cards in production. I'd like at least 1 expansion a year and I'd like it to cost under $100.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Hall
United States
Marion
SC - South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
The three pitfalls were essentially:

1) Cards that were supposed to be over the power curve to help a faction out (Offering to Hekarti and Judgment of Loec, e.g.) that ended up doing too much for too little as more cards became available.

2) Neutral tempo cards that put too much emphasis on the early draw (Warpstone Excavation and Muster for War).

3) Super-combo one-turn win stuff that generally relied on recursion.

It seems like the preferred order of fixing should be: add Limited or Unique, then restrict, then limit to one per deck. If you have to do more than one, you might as well just ban it.

I always thought they should have done more with Limited from the get-go, because most decks only had three Limited cards, and getting multiple Warpstones was way more swingy than multiple villages. As it stands, many of the limited cards just aren't going to go in decks because they were only there to be played a million times on the kill turn. It's not like you're weighing that turn one Fists of Mork against Contested Village.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maik Hennebach
Germany
Frankfurt
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
As a huge fan of the game, I'll agree that the errata list is not a pretty sight. On the other hand, it is more or less completely irrelevant for non-tournament games: all changes were made to either defuse power cards that decided games on their own (Warpstone Excavation and Muster for War) or dismantle infinite combos that broke the game.

So, unless you deliberately strive for decks that use such infinite combos (and it took about half the population in Poland to find some of the more esoteric ones), my advice would be to forget the errata and just enjoy playing the game. I'd only recommend looking at the restricted list if you either want to go to a tournament or find that some cards become automatic choices when building decks (e.g. Sorcerer of Tzeentch).

Personally, FAQ 2.0 and onwards saved the game for me from boring combo decks, so I'm definitely not tired of FFG looking after their game. Would I prefer the cards to be balanced right from the start? Of course I would, but as long as we're not living in a perfect world, I'm certainly happy that the Invasion developers try to steer the boat in a direction that's right for me. And, as far as I can tell, for most active players.

By the way, if you have trouble finding players, OCTGN has corrected versions for the errata'd cards, so you might kill two birds with one stone there ...
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some fantastic responses in here and I'm quite pleased that none of them were snotty or mean-spirited. Thanks!

Love the sticky note idea, that is a keeper in my opinion since I always use sleeves anyway. GREAT!!

I agree that this is an issue that you could, in theory, ignore at home for casual play but honestly, for me (anyway), I prefer to practice like I'd play, thus I like to play using the same rules and limitations as anyone would have at a tourney and such. So it definitely comes as an annoyance.

To the person who claimed that they expect this from a game - my response is NOT that it was a shock (I've played everything since Magic's launch, having tried nearly every single CCG out there, even if only briefly or via a Demo) but rather how this is being handled by adding words "virtually" via a FAQ. It's one thing to put out a ban list (which honestly, at this point, be FAR more convenient and probably an easier and better solution) versus having these unwieldy and large lists to have to manage. Big. Difference.

I definitely have to check out OCTGN - if only it was more user-friendly. And I'm still confused as to why FFG wouldn't just craft online components for these LCGS, too. It's not going to harm the sales in any way, from what experience has shown us. If anything, it adds more players as people get to try the game out and get stoked about it. Should be standard from now on with card games (LCG or CCG) to offer an online component.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Schwarz
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kaine82 wrote:
All card games suffer from this. I just expect it.


I second this. I wasn't really thinking about it before, but now that I'm remembering the B5 CCG, the changes in Warhammer are downright tame.

They reworked the text on about thirty cards from the initial set, actually changed the card type of at least two, one character walked away with an entirely new ability that just wasn't there before... it was kinda insane.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
While I haven't compared them, I bet this game has more banned, restricted, and errata'd cards than AGoT; and at least AGoT gets reprints with fixed cards!

We started playing again after a long time and I decided to tune all my decks or rebuild them. I, of course, took a quick look at the FAQ. I used to play Empire, and of course while I didn't use the whole broken combo of cards, I still had 1 banned and 2 restricted cards. Other decks had more than one restricted card.

I also really don't understand the point of "Limit 1". I completely agree with Anthony, just ban the stupid thing. The meta will adapt and the game has an ample card pool to do so. While I hesistate to make the comparison, this has happened regularly to MtG over the years and players simply change what they are doing.

This seems to be common among almost all the LCGs, but poor Warhammer is certainly getting it the worst.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, Dave!

I'd still like to point out that I think that W:I has one of the better gameplay rules engines out there. It accounts for the most annoying problems in M:TG (Mana flood/screw) while offering good combat and fun interactions.

To this day, I still derive no small amount of enjoyment from the choice, every turn, of where to place cards around the Capital Board to get either card draw or resources or battle-capable units. Just really fun.

This is the game that convinced me (even more than I thought before) that my friend, Eric Lang is a frikkin' design genius.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maik Hennebach
Germany
Frankfurt
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
locusshifter wrote:
I also really don't understand the point of "Limit 1". I completely agree with Anthony, just ban the stupid thing. The meta will adapt and the game has an ample card pool to do so.


Although it is unwieldy, I prefer limiting a card so severely to completely banning it. While I haven't seen Warpstone Excavation in quite some time, Muster for War is so game-definingly powerful that even including one copy makes an appreciable difference to your deck's strength. If you think of that card as a reward for avoiding all the other powerful cards from the restricted list (i.e. not playing one of the well-known deck archetypes), you can see how it promotes variability in deck-building, even with its limit of 1 per deck.

locusshifter wrote:
This seems to be common among almost all the LCGs, but poor Warhammer is certainly getting it the worst.


A small part of that was certainly due to poor development. For example, all six recursive tactics (Fists of Mork, Convocation of Eagles, Pigeon Bombs, Barbed Snares and so on) should have been limited right from the start.

However, the very thing that sets Invasion apart - the wonderful game engine that Anthony also applauded above - makes it a good deal more fragile than any other card game I know. Apart from escalating effects that make early boost or control cards so valuable, the possibility of drawing oodles of cards regularly makes the game prone to the combos that almost crippled it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maik, I totally agree.

For this game to be really rock-solid, it would have required a far more stringent and in-depth playtesting process than it probably received.

Still, it could be in worse shape, I suppose, so it's not the end of the world. Just an annoyance, nothing more.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maik wrote:
However, the very thing that sets Invasion apart - the wonderful game engine that Anthony also applauded above - makes it a good deal more fragile than any other card game I know. Apart from escalating effects that make early boost or control cards so valuable, the possibility of drawing oodles of cards regularly makes the game prone to the combos that almost crippled it.


I liken this to what Chris Long said about CoC once: Just one up or down in the cost can be the difference in a useless or even broken card. There also seems to be the same drawing and recursion issues cropping up in recent releases, such as Key and the Gate in CoC and hence a pile of FAQing the game up.

I know these two games aren't the poster children of success but FFG really needs to perform their due diligence in testing things a bit further.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
"This is a really weird game, and you’ll find that most people will not want to play this."
Avatar
mb
kaine82 wrote:
All card games suffer from this. I just expect it.
Really?
All card games?
Seems like it's the LCG model that fosters a lot of these issues. And since FFG prints them all, then it seems like an issue that could be remedied, if they desired to do so.
I hope that their future plans of only doing "deluxe" expansions might reveal some of these degenerate interactions earlier, with less "Oops, we fucked up again," mea culpas.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fightcitymayor wrote:
I hope that their future plans of only doing "deluxe" expansions might reveal some of these degenerate interactions earlier, with less "Oops, we fucked up again," mea culpas.


You know, now that you mention it, that's another good point. I still think it's a question of volume of testers. I mean, NR: C&C had ZERO issues. Heck, the game has had one minute errata in over a year. I'm guessing NR, unlike W:I or CoC has 10x the testers though.

Edit: Spelling
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I know for a fact that these games don't get a ton of playtesting and that's the big problem. Sure there's some due diligence and playtesting but nowhere near what should be happening.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vladimir Lehotai
Slovakia
Piešťany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree that the errata are annoying. I play only casually, but I adhere to them (as well as the restricted list) and have a the relevant changes púrinted out on a piece of paper. It's because the game isn't sleeved yet and I don't want to use stickers or a pen.

locusshifter wrote:
While I haven't compared them, I bet this game has more banned, restricted, and errata'd cards than AGoT; and at least AGoT gets reprints with fixed cards!


From what I gather, W:I is something like an unwanted orphan compared to those LCGs, which are popular because its popularity didn't rise that much.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Kudzma
United States
Millsboro
Delaware
flag msg tools
designer
People are...
badge
SPOCKED!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
locusshifter wrote:
While I haven't compared them, I bet this game has more banned, restricted, and errata'd cards than AGoT; and at least AGoT gets reprints with fixed cards!


From what I gather, W:I is something like an unwanted orphan compared to those LCGs, which are popular because its popularity didn't rise that much.


Yep. I've been with the game since day one and seen it rise and fall. I knew it would never see reprints. I honestly thought it would be discontinued, sadly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Shore
United States
Georgetown
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
fightcitymayor wrote:
kaine82 wrote:
All card games suffer from this. I just expect it.
Really?
All card games?
Seems like it's the LCG model that fosters a lot of these issues. And since FFG prints them all, then it seems like an issue that could be remedied, if they desired to do so.
I hope that their future plans of only doing "deluxe" expansions might reveal some of these degenerate interactions earlier, with less "Oops, we fucked up again," mea culpas.


Yes, ALL card games. It's the nature of the beast. The bigger the card pool gets the harder it becomes to play test all card interactions.

The LCG model complicates this even further with the lack of a limited format. The longer the games are out the more erratas and restrictions we will see.

I'm just happy there has only been 1 banned card.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.