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Subject: Hegemonic available at CSI rss

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Brad Venable
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What the title says. Updated this morning. For $52.99.
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Operadragon wrote:
What the title says. Updated this morning. For $52.99.


As a $69 backer, that's a bit infuriating. I know we're getting some extras that are specific to the project but it also feels like a really long time til we have it in hand. I'm glad that the game will be at the BGG.Con library and that's the only thing keeping me from being super annoyed.

JAZ
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James Mathe
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This is a problem with deep discounter online stores and the fans that support them. Not with us. The retail on the game is $79.99 and the Kickstarter backers that agreed to get their coins later have already shipped out.

As a Kickstarter backer you also got 7 free bags, 1 free button, 50 free metal coins, 2 promotional cards, a foil and signed box, and free shipping.

James
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RPGShop wrote:
This is a problem with deep discounter online stores and the fans that support them.



Why would this be a "problem"? It seems to me that, if there is a problem, it would be that the retail price is just too high since they are able to sell it for about two-thirds of that and still make a profit.

Regardless, I think Hegemonic looks like an interesting game and will certainly be considering it.
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Oliver Kiley
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epicgamer wrote:
RPGShop wrote:
This is a problem with deep discounter online stores and the fans that support them.



Why would this be a "problem"? It seems to me that, if there is a problem, it would be that the retail price is just too high since they are able to sell it for about two-thirds of that and still make a profit.

Regardless, I think Hegemonic looks like an interesting game and will certainly be considering it.


There's a fairly consistent formula between MSRP and the price a publisher sells to a distributor. Unless the publisher requires some price enforcing policies (i.e. the near fixed sale price Mayfair imposes on Settlers of Catan) then the distributor can make whatever deals they want with retailers, online or otherwise.

Look at Eclipse - MSRP of $100 and on Cool Stuff for $68 (selling for 68% of MSRP). Hegemonic is $53 (~66% of MSRP). Heck, Carcassonne is selling for $24 with an MSRP of $34 (~70% of MSRP). Notice the trend? Online resellers sell for a slim margine, but make up for for it in Volume.

As James mentioned, KS backers got the game for $10 off MSRP with free shipping (another $10 in value) plus the extra goodies.



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Brad Venable
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Not my intention to start a poo-storm. I thought it was news, and that our copies should be here soon as well.
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Howard

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Operadragon wrote:
Not my intention to start a poo-storm. I thought it was news, and that our copies should be here soon as well.


Poo-storm starter!!!
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Jason Speicher
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was one of my first projects that i backed, and i will say that hegemonic is one of the few that i think gets value for the project. I've stopped backing as many games because the rewards just don't make up for being a backer, that often times costs more than what I can get the game in retail channels. Hegemonic won't be that way. Heck, the coins ended up being a money loss for them from the sounds of it, so getting those coins was a great deal.
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Brad Venable
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Pumpkinhead76 wrote:
Operadragon wrote:
Not my intention to start a poo-storm. I thought it was news, and that our copies should be here soon as well.


Poo-storm starter!!!


You think this is a poo-storm, wait until the next time we play Robinson Crusoe, bub.
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Neil Christiansen
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I happen to agree with James as to where the problem is.
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I got to play hegemonic at FallCon and it was easily the game of the con for me. We had a really nice PNP copy that we played. I'm really looking forward to getting the finished game!
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Darrell Hanning
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RPGShop wrote:
This is a problem with deep discounter online stores and the fans that support them. Not with us. The retail on the game is $79.99 and the Kickstarter backers that agreed to get their coins later have already shipped out.

As a Kickstarter backer you also got 7 free bags, 1 free button, 50 free metal coins, 2 promotional cards, a foil and signed box, and free shipping.

James


If it's a problem "with the store", then how do they stay in business? The distributor is willing to sell them the product at such a price that they can afford to discount the sale to you.

So, does this now make the problem "with the distributor"? And who is selling it to the distributor at such a low price?

I think your beef is that you don't get the same price from the distributor as the online shops get, because you can't sell as many copies.

And until we continue down the path toward a socialist state, that price discrepancy is just going to continue to be something you have to live with.
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James Mathe
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Darrell, I don't mean to sound rude but you don't know what you're talking about.

Distributors sell to all retailers at roughly the same price. 45-50% off. I have little or no say in that matter without pissing off a large segement of retailers. So I sell to distributors through my fulfillment house and get only 36% of retail for ALL sales. The Fulfillment house and the Distributor make roughly 10% each. The rest of the margin (45-50%) is all given to the retailer to do what they want.

A brick and mortar store has to sell at full retail or they will not be able to pay the rent and support gaming space and decent trained help. On the other hand a deep discounter has only to pay warehouse space and someone who can read a picking ticket to pull/pack the product. That's much cheaper. Plus if they deep discount they get 10 times the orders as a brick and mortar. So stores like CSI are living on making $5-10 a game. A local store cannot do that.

The point I made though is that I as a publisher have little say in the matter of what a store sells our products for. Large companies like Mayfair games can ENFORCE a minimum markup on the industry (and then policing that is another matter) - but someone like me cannot.

So since I only get 36% of the MSRP when I sell a game, the MSRP has to be set high enough so that I make some money too. That being only $5-10 a game typically. If I lowered the MSRP of Hegemonic I'd make no money or even loose money.

James
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Oliver Kiley
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Another thing worth pointing out is that James gets to live this reality on both ends - as a game publisher and as an owner of multiple brick and mortar game stores.

Keep in mind too that just the raw production/manufacturing cost of games are around 1/5 of MSRP (so $16 in this case). That doesn't include other assignable project costs, like shipping, customs fees, warehousing fees, paying artists, paying layout + graphic designers, paying editors, paying the designer, etc. Whatever SLIM project profit is left over needs to support the publisher as a business too - paying for marketing, paying for convention fees + expenses, paying legal or finance fees, on and on. Games NEED to be profitable otherwise the publisher, as an overall business, is just burning through money. It's not sustainable even with a game that breaks even for its own costs.
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Matt Shinners
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RPGShop wrote:
Darrell, I don't mean to sound rude but you don't know what you're talking about.

Distributors sell to all retailers at roughly the same price. 45-50% off. I have little or no say in that matter without pissing off a large segement of retailers. So I sell to distributors through my fulfillment house and get only 36% of retail for ALL sales. The Fulfillment house and the Distributor make roughly 10% each. The rest of the margin (45-50%) is all given to the retailer to do what they want.

A brick and mortar store has to sell at full retail or they will not be able to pay the rent and support gaming space and decent trained help. On the other hand a deep discounter has only to pay warehouse space and someone who can read a picking ticket to pull/pack the product. That's much cheaper. Plus if they deep discount they get 10 times the orders as a brick and mortar. So stores like CSI are living on making $5-10 a game. A local store cannot do that.

The point I made though is that I as a publisher have little say in the matter of what a store sells our products for. Large companies like Mayfair games can ENFORCE a minimum markup on the industry (and then policing that is another matter) - but someone like me cannot.

So since I only get 36% of the MSRP when I sell a game, the MSRP has to be set high enough so that I make some money too. That being only $5-10 a game typically. If I lowered the MSRP of Hegemonic I'd make no money or even loose money.

James


And yet, through KS, you're selling directly to the consumer, without going through a distributor, so you're closer there to an OLGS (in fact, you're in a better position than an OLGS). So you have to compare your profit-per-item on the KS vs. a copy that you send to a distributor which ends up at an OLGS. I'm not sure what that is, but I have a feeling you made more on that than you did on the copies that went through distribution. And you can still set MSRP at a level that will net you a profit while discounting those KS copies below it - unless distributors are starting to include KS clauses in their distribution contracts - I'm not sure if they are or not.
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Sam Carroll
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I work a different retail business (musical instruments) and I can tell you firsthand that the only reason smaller brick-and-mortar music stores are able to stay open is because many of the large manufacturers now enforce Minimum Advertised Pricing. An e-tailer can theoretically sell for just a smidgen over cost and still make a profit because of their low overhead. Of course, they don't provide the same services that we do (instrument repair, knowledgeable staff, or being able to try before you buy, for example), but many customers fixate only on the price. So now most of the large manufacturers (Conn-Selmer, Yamaha, etc.) enforce MAP to protect stores like us.

However, a small publisher like Minion doesn't have the clout to enforce a particular selling price. So if you enjoy any of the services that your FLGS provides that e-tailers don't, then support them by buying games there!
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Oliver Kiley
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MattShinners wrote:
And yet, through KS, you're selling directly to the consumer, without going through a distributor, so you're closer there to an OLGS (in fact, you're in a better position than an OLGS). So you have to compare your profit-per-item on the KS vs. a copy that you send to a distributor which ends up at an OLGS. I'm not sure what that is, but I have a feeling you made more on that than you did on the copies that went through distribution. And you can still set MSRP at a level that will net you a profit while discounting those KS copies below it - unless distributors are starting to include KS clauses in their distribution contracts - I'm not sure if they are or not.


Yes, of course KS is part of the equation - remember again that $10 was knocked off the price and free shipping was included (another $10 in unit costs Minion has to pay). In addition, both Amazon and KS take a cut of the project earnings too. Last, the MSRP has to pencil out in the event of future printings too, where there likely won't be a huge influx of direct sales to help cover costs.

Regardless - if this issue a concern to you, recognize that it cuts across the whole hobby gaming market space. The same trends and breakdowns play out accross games/publishers.

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James Mathe
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MattShinners wrote:
And you can still set MSRP at a level that will net you a profit while discounting those KS copies below it - unless distributors are starting to include KS clauses in their distribution contracts - I'm not sure if they are or not.


I'm not sure what your point is. The Kickstarter Hegemonic games were discounted. $10 off retail. $10+ off for shipping. $10 of free coins. $5 of free bags. So that means we're selling them at $54 plus you get extra promo stuff and free shipping. The CSI price of $55+ didn't include shipping or promos. So you still got a better deal at KS.

Plus, remember... the point of Kickstarter is to back something to help it get made. Not to get a super deal that can't be matched. It's not a discount shopping mall.

James
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The only thing I dislike about this is that most kickstarter backers will be receiving their copy after copies purchased via OLGS. One of the major draws of kickstarter (for me) is getting the game early.

I opted to pay the $10 extra to ship my game ASAP, and I still don't have my copy yet (nor any kind of shipping notification). But if I ordered a copy from CSI, I would have it by the end of the week.

OT: How are the Kickstarter copies being shipped in the USA? I assume not FedEx, do you know if it's UPS or USPS? USPS is notorious for holding my packages at their office for over a week before bothering to deliver it to my home...
 
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Faranim wrote:
The only thing I dislike about this is that most kickstarter backers will be receiving their copy after copies purchased via OLGS. One of the major draws of kickstarter (for me) is getting the game early.

I opted to pay the $10 extra to ship my game ASAP, and I still don't have my copy yet (nor any kind of shipping notification). But if I ordered a copy from CSI, I would have it by the end of the week.
I am probably misremembering this, but I thought I saw on another thread that shipping is done (for those that opted to have the separate game and coin shipments). If I am correct (hey, it happens occasionally) then you should have your copy sooner than a CSI order.
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James Mathe
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Faranim wrote:
OT: How are the Kickstarter copies being shipped in the USA? I assume not FedEx, do you know if it's UPS or USPS? USPS is notorious for holding my packages at their office for over a week before bothering to deliver it to my home...


We are using a service to help us fulfill the orders. I'm not pleased that they have taken an extra week then planned to get it out the door (which is why it's so close to the actual release). They are not using UPS or FEDEX or USPS... they are their own shipper. Though USPS trucks drop it off at the end of the route. As such I don't have tracking numbers and they are as advanced with a computer for you to check on them. I was told they went out last Wed & Thur. So you should have your copy this week.

James
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I've Kickstarted many items and that's what irked me a bit this morning... CSI has it for sale now and I don't have my copy. I don't mind paying more as a Kickstarter to support a game and I don't mind CSI selling the game for cost+7%, cost, or below cost. I do expect to have my game several weeks before retailers. You know, "Early Delivery, be the first to play!" and all that...

For CSI to have the game today, the general distribution copies must have shipped to distribution the minute they arrived here.

On the other hand, I'm not storming the castle with a torch and pitchfork. Mistakes are made and I suspect Minion has learned from this experience. I'll probably even forget it ever happened if I find a Hegemonic box in my mailbox today...
 
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Bobby Griggs
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bgriggs wrote:
I'll probably even forget it ever happened if I find a Hegemonic box in my mailbox today...


It wasn't in my mailbox.
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After my past Kickstarters I always enter a Kickstarter for the product... I honestly could care less if I get it first as long as I get what I pledged for. (if its a KS that includes an item being promised).

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James Mathe
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I confirmed with distribution that CSI didn't actually receive it's product till Wednesday. So even shipping out that same day people won't have it till Thursday or Friday or later.

I double confirmed all our copies shipped last week.

James
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