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Subject: Minion effect with no Werewolves rss

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dypaca
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1. If all werewolves are in the center and only the Minion is killed, do the villagers win? The rules seem to say that everyone loses, but I wanted to be sure.

2. If you are using a Minion and a Tanner, all werewolves are in center, and the Tanner is killed, does the Minion win as well?
 
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Ted Alspach
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dypaca wrote:
1. If all werewolves are in the center and only the Minion is killed, do the villagers win? The rules seem to say that everyone loses, but I wanted to be sure.


Yes, everyone loses. But the Minion loses more, 'cause he's dead.

Quote:
2. If you are using a Minion and a Tanner, all werewolves are in center, and the Tanner is killed, does the Minion win as well?


No, the Minion does not win as well. If the Tanner dies, the werewolf team can't win.
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Bill Grant
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dypaca wrote:
1. If all werewolves are in the center and only the Minion is killed, do the villagers win? The rules seem to say that everyone loses, but I wanted to be sure.


I think the only way villagers can win is if no one is killed when the werewolves are in the center, but since the minion is on the werewolf team I would consider this a win. (I'm curious what the official rule is, I don't know).

Since the Minion is killed he would not win with all the werewolves in the center, that much is clear.

dypaca wrote:
2. If you are using a Minion and a Tanner, all werewolves are in center, and the Tanner is killed, does the Minion win as well?


Since the minion's condition when werewolves are in the center is "one other player (not the minion) dies" I would say this is correct.
 
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Bill Grant
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Ninja'd by the designer and got 'em all wrong. Ouch!
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Bill Grant
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I think I need to make a flowchart.
 
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Nushura
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-Normally, when villagers kill the minion they lose. Why would it be a difference if there are no wolves?

-Likewise, the tanner is the only winner if he is killed. Again the fact that there are no wolves does not affect that

EDIT: Double Ninja'd. At least I was right!
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Cameron McKenzie
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If there are wolves, the villagers must kill a wolf to win (killing the minion doesn't count).

If there are no wolves, the villagers must kill nobody to win (whether or not there is a minion).

I'm not really satisfied with the ruling for minion without wolves though. It is too hard for villagers to win in this case. You can't come up with a plan to create a no-lynch, because the minion will change his vote and win. This means villagers can only when by voting randomly and getting extremely lucky.

If lynching the minion could create a win, this scenario would be perfectly reasonable for either team to win (it would be just like having one wolf). The idea that a lone minion is stronger than a lone wolf is just weird.
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Nushura
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MasterDinadan wrote:

If lynching the minion could create a win, this scenario would be perfectly reasonable for either team to win (it would be just like having one wolf). The idea that a lone minion is stronger than a lone wolf is just weird.


Well, the minion is clearly harder than the wolves. Even if you find and kill him you lose the game. This does not happen with a wolf...so why would it be easier if there are no wolves in the game?

Once we had a worse situation in which there were 2 wolves, 2 normal citizens...hence the good guys had no information to go on. All four of us claimed to be normal guys so it was impossible to say much.

but then again, we started another game afterwards
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Village is much more likely to win a 2 villager 2 wolf game, than you are to win a 4 player lone minion game.

The former gives village a 2/9 chance of winning even in the worst case, where wolves vote together and villagers vote randomly. Any wolf slip up or villager bluffing can improve those odds for village.

The latter gives village a 1/9 chance of winning even in the best case where they have all of the information. There is only one possible bluff and it is not likely to work (if you've already revealed enough to deduce lone minion, you probably cannot make a credible bluff).


Lone minion is the only scenario in which villagers can have all of the information and still have almost zero chance of winning.
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Bill Grant
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It seems strange to have a situation where the minion can essentially break the game to win. Thematically it seems strange. If the minion's job is to make himself be killed when there are werewolves, and not get killed if there are no werewolves, it would seem his win condition should be similar to the villagers in this case. In this way he would "blend in with the villagers" to help in future werewolf nights. devil
 
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Clyde W
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Billgrant wrote:
It seems strange to have a situation where the minion can essentially break the game to win. Thematically it seems strange. If the minion's job is to make himself be killed when there are werewolves, and not get killed if there are no werewolves, it would seem his win condition should be similar to the villagers in this case. In this way he would "blend in with the villagers" to help in future werewolf nights. devil
I agree. I will play as such:

If playing with Minion, I will ALWAYS include the Tanner as well. Therefore, regardless of which 3 cards are buried, there will always be at least two teams. The win cons for the teams are then easy:

- The Tanner wins if killed. If killed, everyone else loses.
- The Wolves/Minion team win if no Wolves are killed (the Minion may die, it matters not). If Minion exists in the game without his Wolf pals, he's treated as if he were a Wolf, and therefore must be not be killed in order to win.
- The Villagers win if they kill a Wolf (unless they also kill the Tanner). If the Villagers realize there are no wolves but there is a Minion, they need to kill the Minion. If the Villagers realize there are no Wolves and no Minion, they need to circle point. If all non-Tanner villagers circle point, Villagers win. (Because the Tanner cannot vote for themselves, they basically have no reason to circle point, and will point to someone at random. Disregard the Tanner's vote under this scenario.)

This allows all 3 sides a chance to win under any conditions.
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Cameron McKenzie
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I like your solution Clyde, but I don't really follow the case of having a Tanner, but not wolves or minions.

Do you mean that all of the villagers just have to point left or point right, and they win regardless of the fact that the villager to the Tanner's left or right didn't get any votes? Or do the villagers actually have to figure out who the Tanner is and skip over him when establishing the circle-point?

If you mean the latter, then what do you think about a variant that simply says that the Tanner must vote for himself (and that only the Tanner is allowed to do this). This makes it easier for him to win in other cases, which he might need (we've never actually seen the Tanner win except in one case where the person had no idea he even was the Tanner) and it solves the issue of the Tanner king-making or screwing the village by casting his vote randomly or badly on purpose.

Edit - Of course, everyone still has to vote for someone else since they don't know for sure whether they are the Tanner. But, after revealing the cards, the Tanner would change his vote to himself.
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Clyde W
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Well, the rules say you cannot vote for yourself.

In the scenario I'm describing, no Wolves/Minion but Tanner, you simply ignore whatever the Tanner does (since he's simply a spoiler here). If everyone else correctly circle pointed (meaning, the tanner got one vote, along with everyone else except one person (because the Tanner didn't vote "correctly")) then the Villagers win.
 
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toulouse wrote:
dypaca wrote:
1. If all werewolves are in the center and only the Minion is killed, do the villagers win? The rules seem to say that everyone loses, but I wanted to be sure.


Yes, everyone loses. But the Minion loses more, 'cause he's dead.


So in all games where the werewolves are in the center and the Minion is not, then the Minion basically gets to win just by virtue of being the Minion? They win just as long as they don't get lynched? That doesn't seem very fun or fair.

I'd rather it read that if the werewolves are in the center and the Minion is not, then the Village can win IF they lynch the Minion.
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Casey Botkin
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mmazala wrote:
toulouse wrote:
dypaca wrote:
1. If all werewolves are in the center and only the Minion is killed, do the villagers win? The rules seem to say that everyone loses, but I wanted to be sure.


Yes, everyone loses. But the Minion loses more, 'cause he's dead.


So in all games where the werewolves are in the center and the Minion is not, then the Minion basically gets to win just by virtue of being the Minion? They win just as long as they don't get lynched? That doesn't seem very fun or fair.

I'd rather it read that if the werewolves are in the center and the Minion is not, then the Village can win IF they lynch the Minion.


Yes. If the minion is out but the werewolves are in the center, then the minion is treated as if he were a werewolf proper.
 
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Scott Serr
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toulouse wrote:
dypaca wrote:
1. If all werewolves are in the center and only the Minion is killed, do the villagers win? The rules seem to say that everyone loses, but I wanted to be sure.


Yes, everyone loses. But the Minion loses more, 'cause he's dead.


So if the werewolves are in the center and only the minion is out, there is no winning condition for the villagers? That seems really dumb. If the team decides not to kill anyone by shooting clockwise, the minion WILL kill someone by shooting counter clockwise. If they decide to kill the minion, everyone dies. There should be a winning condition for everyone at the table every game.

House rules for this will be that by killing the minion, villagers win.

Quote:
Quote:
2. If you are using a Minion and a Tanner, all werewolves are in center, and the Tanner is killed, does the Minion win as well?


No, the Minion does not win as well. If the Tanner dies, the werewolf team can't win.


This is logical, but it brings up the question, what if there are no wolves or minions, only a Tanner? The villagers can only win if the Tanner decides to go along shooting clockwise and doesn't kill someone to bring everyone else down with him.

House rules for this will be ignoring the tanners vote in this scenario as someone else suggested.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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SerrBear wrote:
So if the werewolves are in the center and only the minion is out, there is no winning condition for the villagers? That seems really dumb. If the team decides not to kill anyone by shooting clockwise, the minion WILL kill someone by shooting counter clockwise. If they decide to kill the minion, everyone dies. There should be a winning condition for everyone at the table every game.

The winning condition is not to give the Minion the information that he is a sole Minion. The Troublemaker could say they have switched his card with another player's and will not say which. Hence, everyone will want to circle vote, even the Minion.

This is why the village should be careful not to always divlulge their information. It can enable evil to have an easy victory.

Quote:
House rules for this will be that by killing the minion, villagers win.

Doing so unbalances the game heavily in the village's favour.

Quote:
This is logical, but it brings up the question, what if there are no wolves or minions, only a Tanner? The villagers can only win if the Tanner decides to go along shooting clockwise and doesn't kill someone to bring everyone else down with him.

Again, if you let the Tanner learn this, then the village has dug their own grave by giving out information too freely.

Quote:
House rules for this will be ignoring the tanners vote in this scenario as someone else suggested.

Again, you are allowing the village to get away easily from a situation they should have avoided. They dug themselves into it, you shouldn't need to house rule to give them a ladder out.
 
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Scott Serr
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Clipper wrote:
SerrBear wrote:
So if the werewolves are in the center and only the minion is out, there is no winning condition for the villagers? That seems really dumb. If the team decides not to kill anyone by shooting clockwise, the minion WILL kill someone by shooting counter clockwise. If they decide to kill the minion, everyone dies. There should be a winning condition for everyone at the table every game.

The winning condition is not to give the Minion the information that he is a sole Minion. The Troublemaker could say they have switched his card with another player's and will not say which. Hence, everyone will want to circle vote, even the Minion.

This is why the village should be careful not to always divlulge their information. It can enable evil to have an easy victory.

Quote:
House rules for this will be that by killing the minion, villagers win.

Doing so unbalances the game heavily in the village's favour.

I can't think of any other situation that would work. A troublemaker that has not yet divulged anything might be able to solve it. A robber coukd do it by saying "I robbed someone" and ending there but the minion will probably bank on still being a minion. Insomniac... Maybe. Still relies on a robber or troublemaker having moved cards and not claiming it yet.

So in this situation, for the villagers to win, based on the legitimate rules of the game, they must:
1. Figure out that there is only one person bluffing.
2. Figure out that the one person bluffing is not a werewolf or tanner.
3. Convince that minion they are no longer a minion so they'll vote with the rest of the team, but without tricking someone else into thinking they're still a minion.

And for the minion to win:
1. Vote against the team.

With my house rule, for the villagers to win:
1. Figure out someone is bluffing.
2. Convince the team to vote for them.

And for the minion:
1. Convince the team to vote for anyone else.

I don't see imbalance in the villagers favor. I see a way out of an impossible challenge.

Quote:
Quote:
This is logical, but it brings up the question, what if there are no wolves or minions, only a Tanner? The villagers can only win if the Tanner decides to go along shooting clockwise and doesn't kill someone to bring everyone else down with him.

Again, if you let the Tanner learn this, then the village has dug their own grave by giving out information too freely.

Quote:
House rules for this will be ignoring the tanners vote in this scenario as someone else suggested.

Again, you are allowing the village to get away easily from a situation they should have avoided. They dug themselves into it, you shouldn't need to house rule to give them a ladder out.


Most of what I said above applies to the Tanner situation. Adding the step of convincing them that's they are no longer the Tanner whilst not tricking someone into thinking they're now the Tanner makes it really really difficult for the villagers to win, especially when the ways to do that are so few and predictable if the players know about it.
 
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