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Space Cadets: Dice Duel» Forums » Rules

Subject: I Disagree With Geoff (Calling Fire While Moving) rss

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Chris Brown
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It has been stated that you cannot call "Fire" while a mini is being moved. I have to completely disagree on 1 account. I agree that the mini must complete the movement, but I think it should be and I will always play as, you can call fire while it is moving but the fire doesn't happen until the movement is completed. Why? Speed of moving the mini. If I am ready to fire and my opponent is frantically trying to roll shields and also trying to move away, say they get the movement first but it will still leave them in my firing arc. They could just move the mini extremely slowly to give their shield officer more time to roll the last shield. My solution, call "fire" and everyone stops rolling but the movement completes.

Summary:

Loophole
Black: Rolls movement
Black: Starts moving
Black: Moves really slow while shield officer rolls shields
Black: Finishes moving
While: Calls "Fire"

Solution
Black: Rolls movement
Black: Starts moving
White: Calls "Fire"
Everyone: Stops rolling
Black: Finishes moving
White: Executes "Fire"

What do you think?

No offense Geoff. I love the game, but where there is a loophole someone in my group will try to exploit it.
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Sam Cook
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The one time I played this, the solution you describe is exactly what we did. We weren't even thinking about the potential for abuse.
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Nicolas Picouet
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This is definitely how we are going to play it. Just seems like a more solid, and easier to understand rule.

If Fire is yelled, everyone stops rolling, and movements are completed.
 
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Geoffrey Engelstein
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Chris, you're dead to me. shake

Obviously you should play it the way that works best for you group. Games in general, and SCDD in particular, are tool kits for you to have fun.

This rule was actually originally added to help the firing team, not the team moving their ship. We had many instances where people would accidentally call fire while a ship was being moved. So we allowed people to rescind their call and wait to see where it ended up. And we never had a group abuse this rule, or the rule that you have to move the ship as soon as you place the third die.

If you do allow for Fire to be called during a move you need to remove the ability to take it back. Otherwise you'll just always say Fire as soon as someone starts moving.

You could go to another extreme and have moves stop the game as well. We tried it once or twice, but it broke up the flow of the game too much. But that might be better for your group.
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Chris Brown
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engelstein wrote:
Chris, you're dead to me. shake

cry

engelstein wrote:

This rule was actually originally added to help the firing team, not the team moving their ship. We had many instances where people would accidentally call fire while a ship was being moved. So we allowed people to rescind their call and wait to see where it ended up.

I get your point here. But shouldn't you really be paying attention to your target before yelling "FIRE!!!"

engelstein wrote:

If you do allow for Fire to be called during a move you need to remove the ability to take it back. Otherwise you'll just always say Fire as soon as someone starts moving.

Ak!!! They totally would!

engelstein wrote:
You could go to another extreme and have moves stop the game as well. We tried it once or twice, but it broke up the flow of the game too much. But that might be better for your group.

Definitely not doing this.

I guess it comes down to, do we protect the firing team or do we potentially punish them for their lack of situation awareness. I agree you cannot have both. Personally I'm leaning towards the punishment. Better be looking at your target before you pull the trigger. I'll have to discuss it with my gaming group.

Thank you for the response and insight Geoff!
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Sam Cook
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Being able to rescind a fire command makes a lot of sense. We had one occurrence where our team yelled fire about the same time someone started moving, and we just randomly decided who resolved first with a die roll.

Went poorly for us since we went second and the ship was no longer a valid target.
 
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Chris Brown
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We stole a squeaky toy from my dog and use it as the "Who did what first?" indicator. And it doubles as a notification to everyone to stop because yelling while everyone is yelling doesn't work well for our loud group. Works as long as the dog isn't playing with another toy nearby

If a person is moving they just grab the ball and move. If it is a "stop rolling" action then you grab and squeak it. This will help to indicate to the person wanting to fire that the ball is being used for movement and they should look before yelling (yelling is always an acceptable alternative).
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Lee Fisher
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killerardvark wrote:
We stole a squeaky toy from my dog and use it as the "Who did what first?" indicator. And it doubles as a notification to everyone to stop because yelling while everyone is yelling doesn't work well for our loud group. Works as long as the dog isn't playing with another toy nearby

If a person is moving they just grab the ball and move. If it is a "stop rolling" action then you grab and squeak it. This will help to indicate to the person wanting to fire that the ball is being used for movement and they should look before yelling (yelling is always an acceptable alternative).


What if people are moving at the same time?
 
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Chris Brown
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lfisher wrote:
killerardvark wrote:
We stole a squeaky toy from my dog and use it as the "Who did what first?" indicator. And it doubles as a notification to everyone to stop because yelling while everyone is yelling doesn't work well for our loud group. Works as long as the dog isn't playing with another toy nearby

If a person is moving they just grab the ball and move. If it is a "stop rolling" action then you grab and squeak it. This will help to indicate to the person wanting to fire that the ball is being used for movement and they should look before yelling (yelling is always an acceptable alternative).


What if people are moving at the same time?


If you go to move and someone is holding it you frantically grab your ship to move before you hear a squeak, lol. It's not a perfect system.
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Flapjack Quarterpie
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What I've done for this is to make moving a pause action like "Warp" and "Fire". My concern was that people were inadvertently leaving the third helm die locked before physically touching the ship. For thematic effect, we say "Engage" as soon as the third die is locked. This removes the confusion and conflict when someone locks but takes too long to touch the mini when the other ship is near a firing solution. Also, some players take a few turns to get used to the movement mechanic. This helps everyone see the ship move and does not give a team a dice banking advantage.

Normally, I try to avoid anything else that halts game play, but I saw enough times when moving caused timing issues that this seems to actually speed up play.

Maybe this is less of an issue with smaller crews, but so far I've only played 4v4. The last game, I ended up being more of a GM than a captain.
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Simon
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playing this today, my group played that as soon as fire is called its totally binding and any movement stops in its current square.
 
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Chris Brown
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DukeofChutney wrote:
playing this today, my group played that as soon as fire is called its totally binding and any movement stops in its current square.


I disagree with this. By what you say, i could stop my own movement by yelling fire which takes away from the puzzle of having to make three moves per movement.

While perhaps more thematic, it takes away from a very interesting portion of the game.

Geoff, curiosity question, why did you make it so all three movement have to be executed together? You can tractor beam without using all tractor beam dice and you can fire without using all torpedo or lock on dice.
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Geoffrey Engelstein
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killerardvark wrote:

Geoff, curiosity question, why did you make it so all three movement have to be executed together? You can tractor beam without using all tractor beam dice and you can fire without using all torpedo or lock on dice.


First off, there would very rarely be any reason to not move after playing one or two dice.

Second, not ending up exactly where you want is an important part of the fun - plus the fun of being surprised at where the enemy ends up.

Moving after a single die gives you too much control, and makes it happen too frequently. The delay between when your opponent can moves gives tremendous tension to the proceedings.

It also forces you to make more of the 'maybe not the best but good enough' choices which I really wanted to bake into the design.

Lastly it gives us some different abilities to give to other ships for, say, an expansion.
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I take it "not ending up where you want" is also a reason why you chose to not have a "no movement" blank spot on the helm dice? Being forced to move three spaces is an interesting design choice, it definitely takes some control away from the helm, and adds a bit of chaos.

I recently ordered this game and am excited to try it. My gaming collection is still very small, but for the first time ever, I impulse-bought your game online after randomly clicking on the Dice Tower review ("oh, 'dice duel' sounds cool, what's this thing?"), and verifying with a few other reviewers that it was a crazy game. It's very much against my nature to make impulse purchases like this, but something about the game just looked too fun! Hopefully my friends agree and want to play with me.

Also, despite not owning the game yet, I had given some thoughts to what might be involved in a potential expansion for this game, since the base gameplay seems kinda set (adding stations and changing the probability on the dice don't seem all that likely). But when you mentioned ships with different abilities, I'm suddenly very interested in what you're going to come up with.
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