Mike S.
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Are children in English speaking territories considered too be less intelligent compared to ..... children in French, German, Dutch or Spanish speaking territories?

The English rulebook says Age 13 and up. The French, German, Dutch and Spanish rulebook says Age 8 and up whistle
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Chris Wheatley
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I would guess it has to do more with the safety rules in place, and what constitutes a toy.

From Toys (Safety) Regulations 1995

"Toy" is defined as "any product or material designed or clearly intended for use in play by children of less than 14 years of age" but does not include such items as children's fashion jewellery or Christmas decorations.

Third parties, as well as the actual users of toys, must be protected against health hazards and physical injury when the toy is used as intended or in a foreseeable way, bearing in mind the normal behaviour of children.

By having a 13+ rating I would imagine that it does not have to go through the rigorous toy checks. While I would guess that it would pass easily at 8+, the costs involved would have been avoided.
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Franz Kafka
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Player77 wrote:
Are children in English speaking territories considered too be less intelligent compared to ..... children in French, German, Dutch or Spanish speaking territories?

The English rulebook says Age 13 and up. The French, German, Dutch and Spanish rulebook says Age 8 and up whistle


I think you forgot to convert the ages from the metric system to real units.
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Peter Schott
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KrsyW wrote:
I would guess it has to do more with the safety rules in place, and what constitutes a toy.

From Toys (Safety) Regulations 1995

"Toy" is defined as "any product or material designed or clearly intended for use in play by children of less than 14 years of age" but does not include such items as children's fashion jewellery or Christmas decorations.

Third parties, as well as the actual users of toys, must be protected against health hazards and physical injury when the toy is used as intended or in a foreseeable way, bearing in mind the normal behaviour of children.

By having a 13+ rating I would imagine that it does not have to go through the rigorous toy checks. While I would guess that it would pass easily at 8+, the costs involved would have been avoided.


I'd tend to agree. This law, when passed, put a world of hurt on small makers of toys/games targeted at small children. The cost for testing a toy made out of a block of wood targeted at a two year old is insane and hurt these smaller companies quite a bit. Changing the minimum age to something much higher means less rigorous testing and thus less cost. It's sad, but the law was passed without really thinking through the consequences outside the "think of the children" aspect. On one hand, it's good because there were a lot of toys coming through with lead paint or other genuinely harmful aspects targeted at toddlers. On the other, it's a huge overreach for the majority of toy manufacturers who don't use poisonous materials in their products. :-/
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Peter Schott
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Player77 wrote:
Are children in English speaking territories considered too be less intelligent compared to ..... children in French, German, Dutch or Spanish speaking territories?

The English rulebook says Age 13 and up. The French, German, Dutch and Spanish rulebook says Age 8 and up whistle


And with that previous post in mind, it might say a bit more about the intelligence of our government representatives than it does about the children. shake
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Mike S.
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I'm glad all of you haven't taken my question too serious, but I see that you've all come up with some serious and logical answers thumbsup
Although the differences in ages look kinda weird, your answers do add a lot of sense to it. thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup
 
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Peter Schott
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Player77 wrote:
I'm glad all of you haven't taken my question too serious, but I see that you've all come up with some serious and logical answers thumbsup
Although the differences in ages look kinda weird, your answers do add a lot of sense to it. thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup


It's a legit question for those not in the US, though I'd rather say that we explained the difference, not added sense to it.

(I remember the law being passed and thinking "this is really overreach to solve the problem".)
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Mike S.
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If I remember correctly, something changed in EU as well for the last couple of years. I believe that all toys that contain parts that fit inside a children's mouth need to have some wording on the package that says that it's not meant for children below 36 months of age or something.
Looney Labs aren't even allowed to sell their awesome pyramids in the EU because of weird EU laws. They even failed at an 8+ age grade.
Read the full story here:
http://sf.looneylabs.com/OurGames/RetailerSupport/PyramidTes...
 
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Eric Matthews
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The is an actual chemical test (which is expensive) to be able to say a game/toy is ok for a certain age legally in the US. I suspect it has to do with some of the melamine laced products scare from a few years back. Some game designer on here must know the specifics.

So most small publisher games will say 13 plus instead just because it is so much cheaper.

E
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Randall Bart
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A stainless steel dinner fork is more dangerous than nearly any game component. Do the Europeans have fork control?
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James Clarke
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If it really is a safety related issue, what's the point of providing the safety information in the rulebook?

Also, I wonder what is the legal standpoint of offering a German edition for sale in the US?

 
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Mike S.
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My copy of the game is an international copy. What's also weird .... the difference in age is only printed on the rules booklet. The box itself says 8+
 
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Barticus88 wrote:
A stainless steel dinner fork is more dangerous than nearly any game component. Do the Europeans have fork control?


No but their electric sockets are so crazy you cant actually get a fork into them.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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Player77 wrote:
Are children in English speaking territories considered too be less intelligent compared to ..... children in French, German, Dutch or Spanish speaking territories?

The English rulebook says Age 13 and up. The French, German, Dutch and Spanish rulebook says Age 8 and up whistle


The US Government has restrictions in place requiring all toys to go through a rigorous and expensive testing process. If you do not pay for these tests (and yes they can get pricey especially for what really is more of a smaller or even cottage industry like board games) then your product is slapped with a generic minimum age level (it used to be a generic 14+ but I think this relented to 13+ a year or 2 ago).

The minimum age is rarely based on game difficulty these days and just to add on my 5 year old plays this game pretty darn well and even wins against his brother and dad who don't hold back! It's a great game with very language independent rules.

Edit Check out Dreadball, you Brit's must be absolute genius level IQ children, minimum age is 7+.
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Jack
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paschott wrote:
it might say a bit more about the intelligence of our government representatives than it does about the children. shake


It might say a bit more about the intelligence of the voters than it does about the government representatives they keep giving that power to.

My 3rd edition box is (like Player77's) also safe for 8+, with a very dangerous rulebook that's only for 13+s. The little gardener has no minimum age, so must be safe even for premies...
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Peter Schott
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IamJacksUsername wrote:
paschott wrote:
it might say a bit more about the intelligence of our government representatives than it does about the children. shake


It might say a bit more about the intelligence of the voters than it does about the government representatives they keep giving that power to.

My 3rd edition box is (like Player77's) also safe for 8+, with a very dangerous rulebook that's only for 13+s. The little gardener has no minimum age, so must be safe even for premies...

Yeah, there's a whole 'nother issue if we start talking about the popular vote electing Congress people as opposed to the States sending people the way they used to. Don't want to get into RSP territory, though. Of course, the way our government is right now a "think of the children" bill such as the one passed for these sorts of things is about all they can get passed.
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Scott
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Player77 wrote:
The English rulebook says Age 13 and up.


As does the box cover.

KrsyW wrote:
I would guess it has to do more with the safety rules in place, and what constitutes a toy.

From Toys (Safety) Regulations 1995

"Toy" is defined as "any product or material designed or clearly intended for use in play by children of less than 14 years of age" but does not include such items as children's fashion jewellery or Christmas decorations.

By having a 13+ rating I would imagine that it does not have to go through the rigorous toy checks.


13+ has overlap with under 14 so this would not be a good reason. Besides which, the box also displays the CE mark which would seem to indicate it has gone through the testing.

Moreover, to quote myself from posts I made nearly a year ago: Re: Enquiries on CE marking for the European market & Re: Enquiries on CE marking for the European market

My fine and learned self wrote:
There was some a few years ago concern about international regulations leading to manufacturers raising the recommended age listed on their toys to avoid having to comply with expensive testing and that this might lead to retailers avoiding carrying certain toys. This mightn't have been the cleverest thing to do as it would fall under a grey zone due to "reasonable expected use".


My fine and learned self also wrote:
Of particular interest may be this from GUIDANCE NOTES ON THE UK TOYS (SAFETY) REGULATIONS 1995
any label or statement on, or with, an item indicating
that it is not a toy, or is not intended for anyone
under 14 years, would not necessarily be regarded as
conclusive by enforcement authorities.

which I alluded to above which reinforces that position that 14 is the magic age but that such a statement on the game is not conclusive evidence that it is not a toy.



Ganabyte and others wrote:
The is an actual chemical test (which is expensive) to be able to say a game/toy is ok for a certain age legally in the US. I suspect it has to do with some of the melamine laced products scare from a few years back. Some game designer on here must know the specifics.

So most small publisher games will say 13 plus instead just because it is so much cheaper.



But as regards expensive testing I wrote "seem" above (for CE, I don't know about USA regulations) because,

My fine and learned self went further and wrote:
Placing the CE mark on a boardgame can be part of a self-verification process that does not require you to automatically submit any paperwork to the EC or pay a fee to the EU. You are required to hold for ten years records -- which could be your own laboratory and checks -- to verify you met the CE standards as this may be requested.


Testing for things is often only expensive because an external laboratory has to stay in business and pay its technicians, rent, utility bills. For example, you can buy an effective lead testing kit for under US $50 and follow the instructions yourself. As much as the techs I know are smart people with science degrees a lot of their workload is mechanical. CE compliance doesn't even need explicit testing by a publisher, a publisher can verify paper work from the manufacturer, the manufacturer can certify conformity having checked the paperwork of his supplier. While lab testing may be advised it is not a requirement for self-certification..

The melamine scare of a few years had NOTHING to do with toys and everything to do with dairy products and chicken feed and pet food adulterated by melamine to increase the measured protein level.

A little dairy history: Prior to around the 90s milk was priced according to its fat content and cows were bred for that. Over the last 30 years the anti-fat health kick has seen milk prices closely tied to protein content instead. The cost of adding melamine to increase apparent protein content is cheap compared to the increased sales prices.

A little food protein testing history: Testing for protein in foods does not actually test for proteins, it tests for nitrogen which is then assumed to correlate with protein content. Melamine contains nitrogen and elevates apparent protein readings. Even if a particular test does accurately establish the amount of protein it there is no indication of the quality of that protein for human dietary needs. E.g., jellybeans are full of protein but it is gelatin that has very little dietary effect. E.g., protein present in wheat is less easily absorbed than that in raw eggs. E.g., the high protein content in protein drinks taken post work out may be negated because such a huge influx of proteins in a short time in a body that has spent a lot of energy may lead to those proteins undergoing catabolism (broken down for energy replacement) rather than anabolism (building up muscle). )

Melamine in toys is harmless. The same is true for BPA. They are both much safer than the scaremongers would have you believe. Part of this has to do with them not even being used in toys (apart from children's plastic dinnerware often being melamine). Melamine present in toys is chemically different to melamine used as a food additive so arguments for food additive/adulterant dangers simply do not transfer to plastic toys.

On a tangentially related note, this post of mine from the same thread Re: Enquiries on CE marking for the European market details a few games which do not carry safety warnings and are perfectly okay for English speaking children.

This could all just be an anti-anglophone conspiracy mind you. The OP may have clued us in to a threat to the very survival of the world's number one most bestest language. The grammar abuse was intentional.
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Scott
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Highland Cow wrote:

If it really is a safety related issue, what's the point of providing the safety information in the rulebook?

Also, I wonder what is the legal standpoint of offering a German edition for sale in the US?


My basic understanding says in the USA laws for commercial distribution and private sale are different. If a product is imported for commercial distribution it would have to comply with applicable regulations. Distributors might also have agreements about where product can be sold which could lead to contract disputes so it might have to done as a third party parallel import (but still as a commercial measure and thus needing to be compliant). There is mutual recognition of many safety standards internationally but I don't know specifics.
 
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