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Subject: Retail Prices rss

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Clinton Tucker
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As a previous backer of Shadows of Brimstone I had to drop out of this project for the following reasons: It looks to me like Flying Frog Productions is breaking up core/expansion sets and adding them piecemeal to inflate the apparent worth of the pledge levels. For instance on the Minecart level there is a set of 3 figures for $25 and a set of 15 cards for $10. Does that seem reasonable? Would anybody buy that at the retail level, or do you think that example is a split up expansion that will hit retail for $15?
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JR Wr
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For research purposes:

http://stores.homestead.com/FlyingFrogProductions/Detail.bok...


http://stores.homestead.com/FlyingFrogProductions/Detail.bok...


http://stores.homestead.com/FlyingFrogProductions/Detail.bok...

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Jon Phillips
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I can't speak for the figures but I have bought all of their mini supplements from their web page for their various games and a few cards is typically 10 dollars. Do I think it's overpriced? Probably a bit but value is a subjective thing. If I really want the extra cards then $10 is cheap since I can also smoke that in a cigar that is gone in an hour and has zero replay-ability.

http://stores.homestead.com/FlyingFrogProductions/StoreFront...
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Jeff Jarvis
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They will sell them split up as seperate pieces for those prices. It's not the first time they've done this. LNoE has a few side missions you can buy separately. And they also split up what looked like one expansion into three smaller ones (weapons, cards, people in different boxes).

I don't believe the value of their prices at all, but that's just me. Others might gladly pay that. I just feel their prices are exaggerated to make the mine carts look like a better deal.
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Clinton Tucker
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I realize that FFP is going to have web-store exclusives for sell,they have already stated that, the point which was missed is,do you think they are splitting up what will be sold in one box at retail into various MC and Outlaw level stretch goals?
 
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Clinton Tucker
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I agree Jeff, but the Hero Pack for instance that came out for LNOE 'Hero Pack One' includes 4 new heroes, their character cards and miniatures, plus 1 new scenario, and 10 new game cards. What if they split up the figure, cards,and scenario and tried to sell separtly at retail level would anybody have bought it ? At their store(which is the most expensive)those items cost $24.95, if it was on this kickstarter they would be charging what $45-$50?
 
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Joshua Harris
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Your whole beginning argument is invalid. the "three figures for $25.00" line fails to mention that these are three XL sized creatures that are 3-4 times the volume of the regular figures...and the $25.00 sets of STANDARD sized creatures have 6-12 figures each.

But that doesn't fit in with your argument now does it?
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JR Wr
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Jgood4281 wrote:
I agree Jeff, but the Hero Pack for instance that came out for LNOE 'Hero Pack One' includes 4 new heroes, their character cards and miniatures, plus 1 new scenario, and 10 new game cards. What if they split up the figure, cards,and scenario and tried to sell separtly at retail level would anybody have bought it ? At their store(which is the most expensive)those items cost $24.95, if it was on this kickstarter they would be charging what $45-$50?


Actually, as even in my links above, 4 heroes are about $12 and 10 game cards are $10.

I think perhaps FFP does charge to much for their product.
But I don't feel the KS prices are inaccurate or over the top compared to what they will be come retail on their site.
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Clinton Tucker
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Again you are looking at web exclusives. I received those heroes for "free" when I purchased the Growing Hunger expansion pack. That doesn't make it the retail price it makes it the MSRP price. Another example Fantasy Flight Games X-Wing miniatures at FFG will cost $14.95 ANYWHERE else it is far less than that (I paid $9.99 for instance). What that means is if you really want it FFG will sell you an X-wing, but (as disincentive) you will pay an inflated price for it. The reason being is because they may sell one from their store, but if XYZ Comics wants to sell it they may purchase 50 from them, and in turn reducing their cost per unit and maximizing profit per unit for both parties. These are just good business practices, but if you start a kickstarter and then (using the X-Wing example) put the X-wing as a core set, it's pilot cards as a stretch goal, and its tokens and special abilities cards as another stretch goal and then saying it's a MSRP of $10, $10, and $10 your are lying to people telling them the MSRP for all products is $30 when in fact it is $14.95. It seems unethical to me .
 
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Clinton Tucker
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Joshua look at the Darkstone Shaman , it has 3 FIGURES, the rules so you can actually play with those figures and the hero card so, once again, you can actually play with those figures. What about that is invalid. Perhaps it is someone's literacy?
 
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Jgood4281 wrote:
Again you are looking at web exclusives. I received those heroes for "free" when I purchased the Growing Hunger expansion pack. That doesn't make it the retail price it makes it the MSRP price. Another example Fantasy Flight Games X-Wing miniatures at FFG will cost $14.95 ANYWHERE else it is far less than that (I paid $9.99 for instance). What that means is if you really want it FFG will sell you an X-wing, but (as disincentive) you will pay an inflated price for it. The reason being is because they may sell one from their store, but if XYZ Comics wants to sell it they may purchase 50 from them, and in turn reducing their cost per unit and maximizing profit per unit for both parties. These are just good business practices, but if you start a kickstarter and then (using the X-Wing example) put the X-wing as a core set, it's pilot cards as a stretch goal, and its tokens and special abilities cards as another stretch goal and then saying it's a MSRP of $10, $10, and $10 your are lying to people telling them the MSRP for all products is $30 when in fact it is $14.95. It seems unethical to me .


Well the stretch goals are free, so I couldn't care if they are breaking up sets for that.

As far as the add-ons, the only broken up set I see are the Scafford Gang and the Otherworld. That's why I'm sticking with the Outlaw level and grabbing any card packs as an add-on. That's where the value is, for now.

As far as thinking it's so unethical that you're not backing, that's seems a little extreme to me. KS' do what they need to raise money. Being so far out from production, they really don't know the costs and need to cover themselves. The prices include free shipping, which they must recoupe.

A side note; Panda Games is known as the company to have make your games in China. However, they have become so in demand, that I know a few games are getting pushed down the release schedule because their is a queue forming. These is only going to lead them to increase their prices.

Jorune
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Jgood4281 wrote:
Joshua look at the Darkstone Shaman , it has 3 FIGURES, the rules so you can actually play with those figures and the hero card so, once again, you can actually play with those figures. What about that is invalid. Perhaps it is someone's literacy?


I too thought you were talking about the XXL creatures because you were talking about broken up sets. How is the Shaman a broken up set. Likes like one of their Hero Packs for any of their other games.

I am going to agree with you, some of those add-ons look a little pricey even for FFP, but as I noted in my above post, I think free shipping plus the increase cost of creating games in general is causing it, not greed.

Jorune
 
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George
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Anything destined for retail will have a lower price because they are producing 1000s of copies and can scale appropriately. The Web Exclusives are pricey because they are likely selling a lot fewer of them. So comparing add-ons to Hero Pack 1, for instance, isn't the same comparison.

The add-ons are much more like the Web Exclusives. They know they will need X copies for the mine cart levels but nothing beyond that.

Aside from price, in regards to breaking up sets as Stretch Goals and Add-ons… isn't that the definition of Stretch Goals and Add-ons? i.e. Just saying it's nothing new… though in this case, I truly don't think they are breaking up a predefined set, but rather adding things as they see their funding grow.
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JR Wr
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Jgood4281 wrote:
Again you are looking at web exclusives. I received those heroes for "free" when I purchased the Growing Hunger expansion pack. That doesn't make it the retail price it makes it the MSRP price. Another example Fantasy Flight Games X-Wing miniatures at FFG will cost $14.95 ANYWHERE else it is far less than that (I paid $9.99 for instance). What that means is if you really want it FFG will sell you an X-wing, but (as disincentive) you will pay an inflated price for it. The reason being is because they may sell one from their store, but if XYZ Comics wants to sell it they may purchase 50 from them, and in turn reducing their cost per unit and maximizing profit per unit for both parties. These are just good business practices, but if you start a kickstarter and then (using the X-Wing example) put the X-wing as a core set, it's pilot cards as a stretch goal, and its tokens and special abilities cards as another stretch goal and then saying it's a MSRP of $10, $10, and $10 your are lying to people telling them the MSRP for all products is $30 when in fact it is $14.95. It seems unethical to me .


The point of my you're missing is that most, if not all, of the smaller things FFP makes are web exclusive.

The Otherworld sets and perhaps mission packs may be available retail.
But odds are good other thing swill only be from their site.
Thats why I used those prices for comparison.
 
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George
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Jgood4281 wrote:
I realize that FFP is going to have web-store exclusives for sell,they have already stated that, the point which was missed is,do you think they are splitting up what will be sold in one box at retail into various MC and Outlaw level stretch goals?


I don't think FFP has thought it through yet. I think it's safe to say that they will be bundling things together for retail… there would be far too many separate items otherwise… but who knows when exactly they might appear. They will start with the 2 core sets and then it all depends on how well they sell. My guess is that it could easily be a year before more stuff hits retail.
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soosy wrote:
Anything destined for retail will have a lower price because they are producing 1000s of copies and can scale appropriately. The Web Exclusives are pricey because they are likely selling a lot fewer of them. So comparing add-ons to Hero Pack 1, for instance, isn't the same comparison.

The add-ons are much more like the Web Exclusives. They know they will need X copies for the mine cart levels but nothing beyond that.



The only web exclusives appear to be the cards for this KS. However, they have said that everything we see in this KS (minus the card packs) will end up at retail OVER the course of 3 years. They are aware that a retail outlet will not want everything at once. They have said if you want it early, now is the time to get it. Otherwise, you very well could get it cheaper at an OLGS, but you will also be waiting longer.

Which is to say, they aren't going to be getting a discount for ordering bulk for the add-ons because they aren't going to be ordering in bulk.

Jorune

and for the record, I'm waiting to get the add-ons at retail, I don't mind waiting. However, the Outlaw level and any card pack add-ons are a great deal. To say they are being unethical when they are offering such a great deal as that pledge level is really reaching for it.
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Kirk Bauer
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Jorune wrote:
To say they are being unethical when they are offering such a great deal as that pledge level is really reaching for it.


Agreed, though in my opinion any price is ethical since each of us have the option to buy or not. It isn't like any of this is a necessity or anything.
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Justin Colm
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Jarvis wrote:


I don't believe the value of their prices at all, but that's just me. Others might gladly pay that. I just feel their prices are exaggerated to make the mine carts look like a better deal.



I have no doubt whatsoever that this is the case. Just compare the contents of either base game box to how much it would cost to buy an equivalent level of contents from the add-on list. It's obviously over-priced.
 
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Justin Colm
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Jorune wrote:
[q="Jgood4281"]

I am going to agree with you, some of those add-ons look a little pricey even for FFP, but as I noted in my above post, I think free shipping plus the increase cost of creating games in general is causing it, not greed.

Jorune



Please don't be so naive. Shipping is never free. It is simply factored into the cost of the pledge tier.
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Tom H
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High Flying Bird wrote:
Jorune wrote:
I am going to agree with you, some of those add-ons look a little pricey even for FFP, but as I noted in my above post, I think free shipping plus the increase cost of creating games in general is causing it, not greed.

Jorune


Please don't be so naive. Shipping is never free. It is simply factored into the cost of the pledge tier.


I think that's exactly Jorune's point about "free shipping".
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High Flying Bird wrote:
Just compare the contents of either base game box to how much it would cost to buy an equivalent level of contents from the add-on list.


I don't believe I've seen a game where that wasn't true.

Examples:
Tannhäuser £60 - Individual Characters £12+ There are more than 5 characters in Tannhäuser

Carcasonne £25 - Inns + Cathedrals £13 + Carcason has 4 times as many meeples and rather more than twice as many tiles.

Expansions are always more expensive because less are sold so they have to ammortise upfont costs over fewer sales and because there are fixed costs that don't depend on what the SKU consists of.

Hell for Xwing two Ties and an Xwing seperately are more expensive than the core box.

Expansions costing more than the core product is normal at retail.
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Terah wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
Jorune wrote:
I am going to agree with you, some of those add-ons look a little pricey even for FFP, but as I noted in my above post, I think free shipping plus the increase cost of creating games in general is causing it, not greed.

Jorune


Please don't be so naive. Shipping is never free. It is simply factored into the cost of the pledge tier.


I think that's exactly Jorune's point about "free shipping".


Yes, thank you.

Jorune
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JR Wr
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dahak wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
Just compare the contents of either base game box to how much it would cost to buy an equivalent level of contents from the add-on list.


I don't believe I've seen a game where that wasn't true.

Examples:
Tannhäuser £60 - Individual Characters £12+ There are more than 5 characters in Tannhäuser

Carcasonne £25 - Inns + Cathedrals £13 + Carcason has 4 times as many meeples and rather more than twice as many tiles.

Expansions are always more expensive because less are sold so they have to ammortise upfont costs over fewer sales and because there are fixed costs that don't depend on what the SKU consists of.

Hell for Xwing two Ties and an Xwing seperately are more expensive than the core box.

Expansions costing more than the core product is normal at retail.


Gotta second this line of thinking.

Another great example is Dust Tactics.
You'd pay nearly twice as much buying the models separate as compared to buying the coffin box.

Dropship commander is another.
The stater / base sets increase 50-100% if yiu buy the models separate.
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Clinton Tucker
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As someone who wants to own everything that comes with a game I enjoy, since they are (in my opinion) breaking up what will later be sold as sets, I'm afraid I will have to buy more duplicates of what was already included in the Kickstarter to obtain parts that are not included. In which case it's better (for me) to wait till it hits retail so I can purchase everything once and only once.
 
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Gavin Downing
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Jgood4281 wrote:
As someone who wants to own everything that comes with a game I enjoy, since they are (in my opinion) breaking up what will later be sold as sets, I'm afraid I will have to buy more duplicates of what was already included in the Kickstarter to obtain parts that are not included. In which case it's better (for me) to wait till it hits retail so I can purchase everything once and only once.


A couple things you might want to consider, in comments from Flying Frog folks Q&As directly:

Will any of the miniatures or packs included as MC add-ons currently be included as any future core sets or boxed expansions? Core sets no, boxed expansions, maybe.

(from Mary Beth): If you were to bundle things later and I pledged outlaw would I have to rebuy things I got for free as stretch goals because they were only available combined or would there be multiple options? Unlikely, I would fight very hard against that, In the very least, you'd still be able to buy them separately via our webstore, but I really don't think that will be an issue. We don't want to piss off our customers by doing that.

In other words, it looks like they won't bundle stuff from this Kickstarter with brand-new stuff, forcing people to buy repeats. If you truly want everything, seriously, Mine Cart is the way to go here. Many of the stretch goals and add-ons won't even be available for a few years; while the rewards will all be sent out at once, they're not going to put all of them out at the same time.
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