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Subject: Shaper Ice Destruction at Worlds? rss

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Corey Arnold
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Apparently at World's someone did very well with a shaper ice destruction deck running no breakers. Runner-up Andrew Veen mentions it at about the 8:00 mark of this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAQQkofgzsk&feature=c4-overvi...

I'm amazed at this archetype, if it is indeed a viable one. I've been trying to build what I think it would look like but at this point I have no real idea.

Can anyone give more insight on this archetype? Possibly someone at World's who saw the deck in action? If so, what are it's strategies on the table? And most importantly: does it make Kraken work?!

 
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mplain
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Maybe it was something like this?
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Corey Arnold
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mplain wrote:
Maybe it was something like this?


Thanks for the thread! It seems very likely that this World's build emerged out of this discussion. I'm not sure about the decks posted there-- the Aesop economies seem a little janky, and I'd almost certainly include Grimoire in this build instead of fishing for Akamatus.

Also, I'm a little confused by Wyrm. That card has always confused me, but I'm under the impression that in order to use that cards +1 / -1 Strength action your Wyrm has to be already be at the strength of that ice. That is, it can't interact with the ice until they match strengths, THEN it can raise and lower ice strength. If that's the case it seems truly useless in this build unless you have Personal Touches all over it.

I was thinking something closer to this for this build, but again it could be way off:

Kate "Mac" McCaffrey: Digital Tinker

Event (22)
3 Dirty Laundry
2 Escher
3 Indexing
2 Infiltration
2 Kraken
3 Sure Gamble
2 Surge
3 Test Run
2 The Maker's Eye

Hardware (11)
3 Clone Chip
2 Cyberfeeder
2 Grimoire
2 Plascrete Carapace
2 Prepaid VoicePAD

Resource (3)
3 Professional Contacts

Icebreaker (1)
1 Deus X

Program (8)
3 Datasucker
2 Parasite
3 Self-modifying Code
 
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Caitlin Huxley
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It looks like my shit is spoiled, so here's the list. This is what I took to plugged in (top 8, twice), and to worlds (totally choked and got 38 or something.)

It's event heavy, and relies mostly on installing and filling 1 or 2 datasuckers. It has a femme, an atman, and 2 deus, but they're just for emergencies. I think I installed the Atman once at worlds.


Kate - ICE killer

Event (20)
1x Account Siphon ••••
3x Diesel
3x Dirty Laundry
3x Indexing
2x Levy AR Lab Access
3x Sure Gamble
3x Test Run
2x The Maker's Eye

Hardware (8)
3x Clone Chip
2x Grimoire ••••
3x Plascrete Carapace

Resource (6)
3x Armitage Codebusting
3x Same Old Thing

Icebreaker (4)
1x Atman
2x Deus X
1x Femme Fatale •

Program (7)
2x Datasucker ••
2x Parasite ••••
3x Self-modifying Code
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David Jackman
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beepers wrote:
Solely recurring parasites is ridiculously good. I'm surprised there aren't more Noise Parasite Recursion decks, seeing as Parasite is the only Virus that you'd naturally want to see over and over again (instead we have Noises that install Viruses just for the sake of installing Viruses).


I've been running the very same idea. It runs crypsis, but its almost exclusively for emergencies. You're going to use parasite 4+ times a game at the least, using Djinn to tutor, Deja Vu to recur either 2 parasites or 1 account siphon, and magnum opus to fuel it all.

People think jackson protects them from noise mill until they have played this deck.

Supa Mill

Noise: Hacker Extraordinaire (Core Set)

Event (14)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set) ••••• •••
3x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
3x Déjà Vu (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
2x Surge (Humanity's Shadow)
1x Vamp (Trace Amount)

Hardware (5)
3x Grimoire (Core Set)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)

Resource (6)
3x Data Leak Reversal (Future Proof)
3x John Masanori (Opening Moves)

Icebreaker (3)
3x Crypsis (Core Set)

Program (17)
1x Crescentus (A Study in Static)
3x Datasucker (Core Set)
3x Djinn (Core Set)
2x Imp (What Lies Ahead)
3x Magnum Opus (Core Set) ••••• •
1x Medium (Core Set)
1x Nerve Agent (Cyber Exodus)
3x Parasite (Core Set)

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
 
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Andrew Scala
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@RedValkyrie

Is this really enough for you to break through their ice? This only gets you 5 parasites until you play Levy
 
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Scala wrote:
@RedValkyrie

Is this really enough for you to break through their ice? This only gets you 5 parasites until you play Levy


Don't forget Test Run can take from the heap. :)
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Jan Bazynski
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Scala wrote:
@RedValkyrie

Is this really enough for you to break through their ice? This only gets you 5 parasites until you play Levy


You are way off. 3 test run, clone chip, same old, self modifying code and 2 parasites make 14.
 
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Tim Silver
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bazyn wrote:
Scala wrote:
@RedValkyrie

Is this really enough for you to break through their ice? This only gets you 5 parasites until you play Levy


You are way off. 3 test run, clone chip, same old, self modifying code and 2 parasites make 14.


11, SMC only helps find them in the Stack.
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Michael Norman
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waite wrote:

Also, I'm a little confused by Wyrm. That card has always confused me, but I'm under the impression that in order to use that cards +1 / -1 Strength action your Wyrm has to be already be at the strength of that ice. That is, it can't interact with the ice until they match strengths, THEN it can raise and lower ice strength. If that's the case it seems truly useless in this build unless you have Personal Touches all over it.


Wyrm raises it's own strength, not that of the ICE. The best way to use him is raise up to ICE strength on which a parasite is installed, then bring that down however far you need to kill it. Pricey but a reliable instant kill.
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Jon Peters
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I played against the Spanish champion runner up. the champion could not make it, who's name I cannot remember for the life of me in league a couple of times, very nice dude. He worked me with a shaper Ice destruction deck running a singleton Crypsis and all the goodies that is shaper recursion on the data suckers/parasites.
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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Hey.

I've posted "the Wyrm deck" and I am really curious who played against the Runner-up. Is that you RedValkyrie?

Wyrm is pretty good at Ice destruction. It isn't supposed to break subroutines. Just calculate - how many credits you usually pay to break Ice. Ice wall? 1 credit for Corroder. Destroying Ice wall? 2credits for Parasite and 1 credit to lower its strength. You can pay 1credit for Parasite (1 credit discount from Kate) and wait 1 turn. Or let's say Heimdall 2.0. Corroder cost - 5+3. Wyrm? 6+7(+2). And it's gone. Forever. Also - Wyrm works great with Personal Touches. And datasuckers (but... well... most breakers work well with DSs).

Next turn? Indexing.

Mid-run Parasite installs are used usually on nasty Ice. Otherwise - ETR, Jack Out or Click through. Use Indexing to fish agendas. Use Indexing to slow your opponent.

Grimoire is interesting console, but I believe Desperado would be much better. You don't install so many viruses and you should run like a Crim all the time.

Anyway - this archetype is pretty to play and pretty annoying to play against. Unless you're Weyland.
 
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Corey Arnold
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mjnorman90 wrote:
waite wrote:

Also, I'm a little confused by Wyrm. That card has always confused me, but I'm under the impression that in order to use that cards +1 / -1 Strength action your Wyrm has to be already be at the strength of that ice. That is, it can't interact with the ice until they match strengths, THEN it can raise and lower ice strength. If that's the case it seems truly useless in this build unless you have Personal Touches all over it.


Wyrm raises it's own strength, not that of the ICE. The best way to use him is raise up to ICE strength on which a parasite is installed, then bring that down however far you need to kill it. Pricey but a reliable instant kill.


Oh right, thanks for the clarification. In that case it does seem quite viable in this archetype, for when you want to brute force into a server instead of waiting around for virus counters to pile up. Plus it plays around Cyberdex trial, which is becoming increasingly important in virus decks.

Does anyone think Kraken is viable in this build? I think it has some synergy with Indexing, but with so many conditions attached it might not be worth the trouble.
 
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Josh Schaener
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Drhorrible wrote:
I played against the Spanish champion runner up. the champion could not make it, who's name I cannot remember for the life of me in league a couple of times, very nice dude. He worked me with a shaper Ice destruction deck running a singleton Crypsis and all the goodies that is shaper recursion on the data suckers/parasites.


Was that Javier? His list was strikingly similar to
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Kaiwen Zhang
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beepers wrote:
I stopped, but now I'm trying it with Kit, who is a little too good at it, reducing servers to 1 Ice a piece over-and-over and then breaking that single ICE with Yog.0 +suckers.


Doesn't really work with Kit because if you encounter the ice to destroy it using datasuckers+parasite, you just lost your ability for the turn, which gives the corp the chance to ice it up again next turn.
 
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Aaron Schneider
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johncraven wrote:
beepers wrote:
I stopped, but now I'm trying it with Kit, who is a little too good at it, reducing servers to 1 Ice a piece over-and-over and then breaking that single ICE with Yog.0 +suckers.


Doesn't really work with Kit because if you encounter the ice to destroy it using datasuckers+parasite, you just lost your ability for the turn, which gives the corp the chance to ice it up again next turn.


I disagree. Kit's ability is magnified when there is at most one piece of ice on any server, which is most easily achieved with parasites. Also, remember that you don't have to parasite the first ice you hit. With clone chip or SMC, you can run a 2-ice server, break through the first ice with Yog, and kill the second ice with your instant-speed parasite. Next turn you rinse and repeat, except it's even easier if they didn't install more ice!

I really love Kit's ability with parasite recursion... I just wish she had more influence. 10 is really cutting it close, maybe 1x Yog, 3x datasucker, 2x parasite, 1x Deja Vu? I haven't found the right balance yet, may have to stick with Kate just for the 5 influence.
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Chris GD
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I'm sorry RedValkyrie but this Andrew Veen is talking about Javier, as it seems by the game he is chatting about, and the report Javier gave to us about his performance on world's.

 
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Adrian Marin
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The deck was played by Javier Rodriguez, 2nd place in the Spanish Nationals.

The deck we are talking about was conceptually born on Tre's Sofa with alcohol in hand right after the Spanish Nationals and after a mind numbing spicy Indian dinner. everyone was talking in th spanish forums about Ice-Less decks, and we came with the idea of "Lets troll them and create a thread about a breakerless deck"

What was our surprise after starting to toy with the idea of Shaper with recurring parasites. Our playgroup has been intensely Playtesting the idea with both shaper and anarch, coming to the conclusion that Kate was the best identity to play it with. I could post the decklist by heart and fail 1 or 2 cards at most. But I will concede that privilege to Shiawase (Javier)

So, no, we didnt come from that thread linked, or stole any plugged in tour decklists, it was our groups homebrew. And pitty it lost on top 32 match because of time and rules, but congrats to Andrew for advancing despite confessing he didnt know how to deal with that deck
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Corey Arnold
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Daidoji_Usagi wrote:
The deck was played by Javier Rodriguez, 2nd place in the Spanish Nationals.

The deck we are talking about was conceptually born on Tre's Sofa with alcohol in hand right after the Spanish Nationals and after a mind numbing spicy Indian dinner. everyone was talking in th spanish forums about Ice-Less decks, and we came with the idea of "Lets troll them and create a thread about a breakerless deck"

What was our surprise after starting to toy with the idea of Shaper with recurring parasites. Our playgroup has been intensely Playtesting the idea with both shaper and anarch, coming to the conclusion that Kate was the best identity to play it with. I could post the decklist by heart and fail 1 or 2 cards at most. But I will concede that privilege to Shiawase (Javier)

So, no, we didnt come from that thread linked, or stole any plugged in tour decklists, it was our groups homebrew. And pitty it lost on top 32 match because of time and rules, but congrats to Andrew for advancing despite confessing he didnt know how to deal with that deck


Nice! Always great to hear a story about a strong, dark-horse archetype emerging out of a strong meta. I don't think anyone was being accusatory in linking the BGG thread or plugged-in stories, we're all just curious about what the deck is and where it came from. I'm looking forward to seeing the deck when Javier decides to post, and until then I'll be crafting my own version and seeing how it does in playtests.
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Caitlin Huxley
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p3los wrote:
I'm sorry RedValkyrie but this Andrew Veen is talking about Javier, as it seems by the game he is chatting about, and the report Javier gave to us about his performance on world's.


Yeah, He & I didn't play. Also, I knew he was talking about someone else's deck when he kept referring to his opponent as "he". That'd be pretty rude if he were talking about me. :-)

I didn't mean to imply it was my deck, but rather my achitype that got spoiled. So, I figured I'd share the one I've been running.
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Adrian Marin
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I guess he will be uploading the full list once he gets back from touring around the states, he is in Miami right now afaik, so it should be in about a week
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Kaiwen Zhang
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aschneid wrote:
johncraven wrote:
beepers wrote:
I stopped, but now I'm trying it with Kit, who is a little too good at it, reducing servers to 1 Ice a piece over-and-over and then breaking that single ICE with Yog.0 +suckers.


Doesn't really work with Kit because if you encounter the ice to destroy it using datasuckers+parasite, you just lost your ability for the turn, which gives the corp the chance to ice it up again next turn.


I disagree. Kit's ability is magnified when there is at most one piece of ice on any server, which is most easily achieved with parasites. Also, remember that you don't have to parasite the first ice you hit. With clone chip or SMC, you can run a 2-ice server, break through the first ice with Yog, and kill the second ice with your instant-speed parasite. Next turn you rinse and repeat, except it's even easier if they didn't install more ice!

I really love Kit's ability with parasite recursion... I just wish she had more influence. 10 is really cutting it close, maybe 1x Yog, 3x datasucker, 2x parasite, 1x Deja Vu? I haven't found the right balance yet, may have to stick with Kate just for the 5 influence.


good point, I overlooked the fact you can parasite the second ice!
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Klaus Musstermann
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I've been working on "Puff the Magic Dragon" Kit + Wyrm for the last month. Here is my latest iteration.

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Android: Netrunner Deck Builder

Identity:
Rielle "Kit" Peddler: Transhuman (Creation and Control)


Total Cards: (45)

Event: (17)
Tinkering (Core) x3
The Maker's Eye (Core) x3
Sure Gamble (Core) x3
Kraken (Humanity's Shadow) x2
Test Run (Cyber Exodus) x3
Stimhack (Core) x2 ■
Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) x1

Hardware: (8)
Clone Chip (Creation and Control) x3
Lockpick (Opening Moves) x3
R&D Interface (Future Proof) x2

Program: (9)
Cyber-Cypher (Creation and Control) x2
Self-modifying Code (Creation and Control) x3
Wyrm (Core) x1 ■■
Parasite (Core) x3 ■■

Resource: (11)
Professional Contacts (Creation and Control) x2
Personal Workshop (Cyber Exodus) x2
Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow) x2
Armitage Codebusting (Core) x2
Daily Casts (Creation and Control) x3

Influence Values Totals -
Anarch: 10
Criminal: 0
Shaper: 76

I'm still learning how to play effectively but here's the idea:

1. Goal rig is Cyber-Cyper (R&D), Wyrm, MU left open for sudden Parasite, Cyber-Cypher (scoring remote).

2. Break the first ice with Kit magic, spot-drop Parasite via SMC, Clone Chip, and Personal Workshop on second ice, eat it with Wyrm.

3. Don't eat code gates of course. Well, maybe really mean ones like Tollbooth. Also think carefully about eating any ice of 4+ strength! Cyber-Cyper can break them cheaply enough with Lockpicks seeing as how it starts at 4 STR anyway and the bigger the ice, the bigger Wyrm's bill will be.

4. Wyrm is a hungry hippo. An ice kill (spot-install Parasite, ingest) usually costs double the ice strength, plus a couple creds. That's why I consider letting big ice be spared. And why the deck has a lot of cash generation options and tried to keep costs low, low, low, and why Stimhack is there - to feed the beast in an emergency. Tinkering also provides an emergency free pass like it does for every Kit ever.

5. Test Run is for Cypher target reassignment and Parasites from heap only. SMCs I actually prefer to use to fetch Wyrm and Cyphers over Parasites, except in a pinch, because outside of a pinch Personal Workshop handles spot-installation "from grip."

6. Never run on last click! I mean besides the usual reasons. If you get a surprise Kraken off, it's so great. Burn down that fat ice you left on R&D, burn down the token 1 ice in front of HQ and go fishing there, whatever, it's fun.

WHY KIT? WHY WYRM?

1. Kit is cool.

2. Wyrm is cool.

3. Kit's ability to more-or-less ignore an ice per turn means less eating Wyrm has to do, so costs are down in terms of credits AND in terms of needed Parasite recursions.

4. I find Wyrm's cost in credits more manageable than Datasucker's cost in setup and MU, and Wyrm can't get shut down by Cyberdex Trial.

Input?
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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Hey!

Adrian: I've never suggested that your Spanish deck was based on mine. Great minds think alike

Klaus: have you considered Personal Touches? They make using Wyrm much cheaper. It depends on how many Ice you parasite of course. On the other hand - it looks like a fun deck. I thought that Kit is a bad choice for Ice destruction, but your rationale makes sense and might be much faster thanks to Cyber-Cypher and Kit's ability.
 
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Grzegorz Pijas
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Thats nothing new really
I have won an online Polish tournament in august with my exile ice destruction deck.
Virus Exile v2 (47 cards)

Exile: Streethawk

Event (22)
3 Diesel
3 Freelance Coding Contract
3 Indexing
3 Infiltration
1 Levy AR Lab Access
3 Quality Time
3 Sure Gamble
3 Test Run

Hardware (5)
3 Clone Chip
2 Grimoire

Resource (5)
3 Kati Jones
2 Same Old Thing

Icebreaker (4)
2 Atman
2 Femme Fatale

Program (11)
3 Datasucker
3 Parasite
2 Sahasrara
3 Self-modifying Code

And that list wasnt even optimized couse i havent got enough time to playtest CC.
Atman is just a backup, i almost never install it. I just kill everything with recurring parasites
In case of iaa>infiltrate, test run, femme and go
My oponnents have been saying that deck is just absurd couse i kill everything they been rezzing.
I think after small tweaking it can be really strong!
 
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