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Legacy: The Testament of Duke de Crecy» Forums » General

Subject: Yellow actions too strong? rss

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Jason Reid
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Played twice so far. In both games, the person who grabbed the most Yellow titles and contributions won. They got such good early VP separation that in later rounds in the game, it became automatic that whomever the first two players were, they took the two yellow actions each time. It was a little disappointingly predictable, and in a 4p game, it seems particularly beneficial to the 2nd player (since they'll get two bites at the Yellow apple in round 1).

Those yellow actions do seem, at a glance, to be the most efficient ways to convert resources into points.

Anybody else have a different experience?
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Szience Man
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My wife and I have decided something similar as well. Basically, if your goal is to win, you can optimize honor per cost with every placement, and that is usually the yellow cards. We have also been starting with one of the promo mansions and the one that allows you to purchase previous gen titles or contributions is pretty hard to beat. We were so focused on primary and secondary goals, but it's generally much more efficient per placement to purchase something late game, and abandon all the planning it takes to get max points from secondary goals...
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Vincent Lalyman
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Yellow actions are strong. But most of them cost friends and money, reducing what you can do with other actions.

Titles earned in the first generation will give a total of 6 points during the game. So does a Mansion bought in I. Taking a mission, or two, in I or II is more risky, but costs less, and with two missions, you can gain 6+ points and other advantages.
An action spent in II to marry a child with a "prestigious" friend can give you as much (or more) as a title, not counting "combos" of friends.

I never had the occasion to play with 4, but with two or three players, titles do not insure victory. They have a good action/gain ratio, but are not the only way to gain lots of points.
In the same way, the Amusement Park is a very powerful card (9 points ! wow) - but is not a sure victory.


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Lionel Graveleau
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amazing : i had the same feeling since i won most of my game with lot of yellow action . So i played yesterday a solo game trying to avoid all yellow action (and few green/orange). I get 60 final points, that is my usual score.
As said, yellow action need some sacrifices and there's often a moment where we have to play a Socialize action. A strategy of birth and wedding can run by himself, without loosing time for cards or money. And the more people we have in the family, the more combos are availables. By example, i married an english lady that gave me :
- 6PV for having other english people
- 1PV for the birth
- 2PV for the mentor
so 9PV with 1 card, that cost me ... nothing (+2)

There are 3 instances where yellow actions are especially interesting :
- no great combo with the starting card hand and the friend availables. At this point, contribution are quite different from title, since they represent a way to change card hand.
- at the end of the game to convert gold to PV
- a way to block an opponent which has lot of money and would use all the round the 2 yellow actions. Not necessary to get the more expansive

The game seems to be well-balanced. The good options depends of the card available : combo, cost, adequacy with mentor, action bonus ... and surely what other players will do and when (especially the the red, yellow or blue action )
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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Yellow actions are good, but they don't assure a win - as you can see in the answers above, there are definitely other strategies that can lead to a win with equal or more points.

One player, for example, went for a large family and managed 29 children (so 29 pts for children by the end). He racked up 73 pts in his first game - two shy of my record score (I've not played the game in its final state that often, though). Are children overpowered? Or yellow actions? Or certain patron cards? I think there are a fair number of very strong options and if you follow those to their logical end, you will score very well. If others do not do well in less obvious strategies (or usually without strategy), then it will look like something overly strong. In my experience they aren't and there are many many ways to victory and very good scores.
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Daryl Unwin
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Yipee!
The first 'this game is broken' thread

I tend to find the earlier they appear (Terra Mystica & Tzolkin from last year spring to mind) the better the game tends to be.

"Anybody else have a different experience"
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Jason Reid
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TheSoundOfTrees wrote:
Yellow actions are strong. But most of them cost friends and money, reducing what you can do with other actions.


Yeah, but so does just about everything. My observation is that Yellow cost less for what they pay out.

Quote:
Titles earned in the first generation will give a total of 6 points during the game. So does a Mansion bought in I.


Banneret provides the exact same benefit as a Mansion, but it costs one less gold. And it's available from the first turn of the game. And there's only one of them, so if I get it, no one else can. Why would I buy a Mansion with Banneret sitting there?

Quote:
Taking a mission, or two, in I or II is more risky, but costs less, and with two missions, you can gain 6+ points and other advantages.


They can also be a lot less than 6 points, and they steer your strategy. Banneret gives 6 points and leaves my strategy open.

Quote:
An action spent in II to marry a child with a "prestigious" friend can give you as much (or more) as a title, not counting "combos" of friends.


Sure, but I can do that after I grab a title before someone else gets it.
 
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Jason Reid
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Geremiah wrote:
Yipee!
The first 'this game is broken' thread


Sigh.

In my games, there was plenty of game to be played after the first two titles were grabbed each round. But that bit of scripting was disappointing.

I think the rest of the actions are well-balanced against each other. And since Yellows are limited each generation, clearly a lot of game has to be played beyond the Yellows. But with few exceptions, the Yellows seem to provide the best guaranteed price / VP ratios in the game.

The "balancing" factor for them appears to be that they're scarce. But that just makes me want them more.
 
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M.J.E. Hendriks
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Both the titles and the mansion give you a nice bonus to your prestige, but it is questionable whether you want to go for points that early. Your strategy might be more long-term, leading to you focusing on other things, such as getting enough children and marrying the right Friend. Personally, I think the Count is absolutely awesome, though extremely expensive (you won't have much left in Friends cards or money, and if you started as a woman your income should be good, but you will be down to your last Friend cards or have none at all). I don't go for any of the other titles, though. Sure the banneret is one cheaper than the mansion, but I usually need to wait to see if my family has been set up successfully in order to prepare for Generations II and III - if I have time and money, then I will consider - at the end of Generation I - getting a point grabber, though I rarely do. There's just too many other things to do.

Your look at this is from a very short-term perspective. A mansion or a banneret or a count is 6 points by the end of the game. Having children is 1 point. That one child, however, might end up giving you the opportunity to gain a number of different combos, and will certainly give you many more opportunities than those simplistic point grabbers. The Count is the odd one out as it also helps you in the income department. Taking the Count, though, will almost certainly cost you an extra turn just to recouperate from the loss in cards (and money).
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Vincent Lalyman
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What can I say ?
You asked for different experiences - I told you mine, that Titles are not as effective as you think. There are plenty of ways to win, and going heavy in Yellow actions is not a certain victory. It's often a valuable investment, but at other times, it is a trap that will cost you actions later to gain the friends and or money you need for something else.

Some times ago, someone told about its first impressions of the game, and that he found that Generation I was scripted because you had to make as many children as possible to win.

I have played a lot of games, and saw a lot of different ways to victory. What you do in gen I is important, but the only thing scripted is to marry your patriarch/matriarch. I've won after buying a title, a mansion, and the 4 points contribution card in gen I, and also by spending my first gen making only actions on my own board (and losing my special token). I also won while spending two actions to undertake two missions in gen I.
It all depends on how you want to gain your points, and when. Your patron card, your hand of friends, the friend offer, who you can marry in I (and who you want to marry into the family later), the gender of your children have more influence on the strategy you should follow than the theoretical value of the colored actions.
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Jason Reid
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TheSoundOfTrees wrote:
What can I say ?
You asked for different experiences - I told you mine, that Titles are not as effective as you think.


Fair enough. I suppose in the end that wasn't really what I should have asked...of course, different people are going to have different experiences. I guess what I was looking for was some sort of rationale for why I might forego titles and contributions.

I can certainly see where a different way to try would be to focus on your family rather than the point grabbers. And that's all about card play and family growth.

I'll still be in somewhat of an "investigatory mode", but I'm willing to let that play out a bit more.
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Vincent Lalyman
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jasonwocky wrote:
I guess what I was looking for was some sort of rationale for why I might forego titles and contributions.

And it's quite hard to give you always-true numbers

The advantage of yellow and green actions is that you know how many points they will give you (or rather, how many points they will give you at least, there are ways to rentabilize them). You don't have to count actions, compute how much money/children/friends/marriages you will need three actions later to complete a combo, etc. They are easy to evaluate.

Let's try this way : for each child you have in I, you can get 3 grand-children. If you have a "+2 by marriage of a given type" patron, you can expect, with three grand-children, to gain 6 points at the end of the game, plus 3 for the three great-grand children you will get for free, for a total of 9. Not counting the prestige the marriages in II and III can give you.
So, a child in I can be seen as being worth a potential 9 points.
It will probably give you even more points : prestigious marriages, points you can earn win the money/income/friends they will gain, etc. But these points are neither obvious, nor certain - it will depend on your future actions, your hand, the other players, etc.

I know it's not hard, convincing facts, but I am not good enough a mathematician to formalize the complexity of planning in Legacy, alas.

All I can do is recommand you to play again, trying other strategies - we found that each and every time we thought we had found the "best" strategy, it was beaten by something else next game. If you enjoy the game enough to try it again, of course.

I would suggest that the best strategy is to do a little bit of everything as long as your friends and patron allow you to rentabilize it easily, but I could give counter-examples !
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