Chris R.
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Since I figure that most RSP posters don't read National Review, I thought I would post something about the number of dogs being shot by police officers. Then I discovered a few other stories that seem to indicate that the police are getting completely out of control.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/362980/puppycide-charl...

The story is about a libertarian filmmaker who is currently raising money through Kickstarter for a documentary about the number of dogs that are needlessly shot by police officers across the country; the Kickstarter expires on November 15. The proposed documentary states that, "Every 98 minutes, a dog is shot by law enforcement." I don't know if that figure is true. Statistics about this topic are often not kept. However, it was found that a dog was shot every seven days just in the city of Milwaukee.

This very graphic and disturbing video can explain the situation better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esn1WNyRVWg

Police officers shooting small dogs in the corner wagging their tails? Have these police officers never been around dogs before? Some of these big guys don't seem very brave.

...

The second story I found.

When a father refused to buy his 19-year-old son a pack of cigarettes, the teenager took off with his father's truck. In an attempt to teach his son a lesson, the father called the police and reported his vehicle stolen. The son ended up being fatally shot by police.

The teenager had stopped his truck, but the police office rammed the back end of the truck's trailer as the police office must have misjudged the depth perception.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20131106/NEWS/31106...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57611421-504083/tyler...

It's just a tragic situation when you look at the video. So much for teaching a lesson though. The police fired six shots, yet the kid was unarmed.

What ever happened to the phrase, "Come out with your hands up"?

All of this over a pack of cigarettes? That's not the way it would have happened on The Andy Griffith Show.

...

Third story.

Man Claims He Was Anally Probed 8 Times Following Traffic Stop For Drugs

His abdominal area was x-rayed twice, doctors stuck fingers in his anus twice, he had three enemas inserted anally, and had a colonoscopy performed. No drugs were ever found during the search.

*** The man was also was sent a $6,000 bill for these involuntarily medical procedures.

http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2013/11/06/man-claims-he-was-an...

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/05/man-seeks-mil...

...

Police in Western nations have also taken to harassing peaceful citizens for trivial laws while refusing to go after real criminals.

"In London I once parked outside a hotel where I proposed to stay. Parking was forbidden outside, but I stopped only to take my baggage inside. I received a parking ticket within sixty seconds, a miracle of efficiency (I genuinely admired it in a way), though it was perfectly obvious from my car's open doors that I did not propose to stay long and was only taking my luggage into the hotel. But on another occasion when my wife telephoned the police to inform them that youths were committing arson in our front garden before her very eyes, they had no time to attend to it. A more senior officer, however, did find the time a quarter of an hour later to complain to my wife that she had wasted police time by complaining in the first place. ...

What normal people regard as important is for them of no importance, while what they regard as of supreme importance normal people regard as of no importance. For them the respectable are suspect and the suspect respectable." -- Theodore Dalrymple

http://takimag.com/article/i_have_seen_the_future_and_it_is_...
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Blinders will only allow you to see what you want to see.

Did you even watch the video? 1) The kid lost the trailer on his own, and backed into the cop on the street with the trailer the first time.

Unarmed? The kid was driving a vehicle, which at least twice rammed the police car. Before the gunshots, you can see stuff go flying as the truck rams the cop car for the final time. Tragic yes, but don't try and make the kid to be some fucking innocent guy.

Again, this was tragic. Because the kid acted like an idiot, and it cost him his life. But I certainly don't fault the police for this. Must be nice to Monday morning quarterback everything.
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Well, since two out of three of these were already posted within the last week, let's talk about the dogs.
 
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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Here is a cop who shot some dogs who just wanted to play with him. You can tell the dogs didn't do anything wrong because of how upset the owner was.

http://www.kval.com/news/local/Caught-on-camera-Dog-attacks-...
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Here is another one. Notice how deadly still and non-waging the dog's tail is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGUyMFPJRnU
 
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Call it 'Puppycide', then show a full grown rottweiler.

When a cop shoots a dog that's coming after him, or acting aggressively towards him, I'm not going to gripe about it. Is there a reason the cop sees a potential risk there? Maybe because the dog isn't on a chain? Maybe because it's coming towards him, barking and growling? Where's the responsible owner, who should have the dog in his house, in his backyard, or on a leash? Where's the responsible dog owner who shouldn't be committing a crime (or being busted for a warrant) when he's walking his dog?

And yes, we all know that dogs aren't mean, it's the owners. How does the cop know whether or not the owner is a good guy? Especially if he's being busted for something illegal.. Ever notice how quiet owners of certain types of dogs get when their animals turn and kill their 4 year old kid? The same people who scream the loudest that their breed is slandered and it's all a matter of how you raise them.

Pit bulls and rottweilers especially are frequently bought by punk thugs for fighting, or for showing their power in an area. When you live in places where you see those types of dogs being kicked in the street by their owners, just so they can toughen them up and make them mean, you don't question so often when one gets shot.

I've had a friend from childhood who is now crippled because he was walking down the street when a 'well-raised' pitbull decided he'd make a good meal. I've had 2 dogs attacked (1 of them twice) by pitbulls while being walked. The last one wouldn't let go and its owner had to pry its mouth open with a claw hammer (in the process, he lost a finger). As far as I'm concerned, if the dog is out roaming the streets and acts aggressively, put it down just like any other wild animal in town.
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galad2003 wrote:
The ticket in front of the hotel is an obvious example of a police officer knowing where to score an easy mark for their monthly quota.

Fuck the police.


It might vary by region but I've never met a cop with a monthly ticket quota. They are supposed to make a set number of "contacts" per hour but that can include any interaction, even giving directions, and is hardly the same thing. I'm willing to accept that this is not true for all areas but until shown otherwise it just seems like misinformation being spread and being used to justify hostilities against an already difficult profession.
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sikeospi wrote:
Police in Western nations have also taken to harassing peaceful citizens for trivial laws while refusing to go after real criminals.

"In London I once parked outside a hotel where I proposed to stay. Parking was forbidden outside, but I stopped only to take my baggage inside. I received a parking ticket within sixty seconds, a miracle of efficiency (I genuinely admired it in a way), though it was perfectly obvious from my car's open doors that I did not propose to stay long and was only taking my luggage into the hotel.


I've never understood that mentality. The second example, of course the police should have been involved. But this one is just plain stupid. The idea that cops should ignore some crimes (because it's me involved) and go after the 'real criminals' always makes me laugh. If you commit a crime, you committed a crime, plain and simple. Whining because you got caught, while you're aware other crimes have taken place and not been caught is dumb.

When my wife and I were dating, she called me up one night in hysterics. She had gotten a speeding ticket. She insisted she had just passed someone, because they were going too slow. She had only gone above the speed limit for a few seconds to pass the guy, and had then gone back to the speed limit. But the cop gave her a ticket anyway. I listened to her throw a fit about it for probably 15 minutes before I said 'Honey, were you speeding?' 'Yes.' 'Then you deserved the ticket, you broke the law. End of story.'

If a person commits a crime, they are, at that point, by definition, a criminal. To say the cops should be going after 'real' criminals is ridiculous.
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The Message wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
The ticket in front of the hotel is an obvious example of a police officer knowing where to score an easy mark for their monthly quota.

Fuck the police.


It might vary by region but I've never met a cop with a monthly ticket quota. They are supposed to make a set number of "contacts" per hour but that can include any interaction, even giving directions, and is hardly the same thing. I'm willing to accept that this is not true for all areas but until shown otherwise it just seems like misinformation being spread and being used to justify hostilities against an already difficult profession.


I've known a lot of police, the quota nonsense is just that, and has been rumored about for years to give people a reason to resent the police some more.
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Most police are well trained and highly professional. However, they tend to self-isolate and become detached from the citizenry and be a bit what-would-be-paranoid if people were not out to get them. (To be clearer, some nutjobs are out to get them. They must protect themselves against that. But it colors their interactions with responsible citizens.)

However, in some areas, police are poorly trained, drunk with power, and/or policing is seen as a revenue stream.

Which you have in your area very much colors your thinking. I have no reason to own a gun for personal protection since a call will bring as many highly trained sheriffs as needed, most of them Marines, as fast as I could open a gun safe and load (and they get in a lot more shooting practice than I).

If I were fifty miles from nowhere, the situation would be different.


If you read the 11 Nations thread, you know that the areas with highest regard for local autonomy are the areas most likely to have...outlier police...and the areas most resistant to a superior authority, state or federal, coming in to reform their police.

But in every area, problems are possible. The isolation and detachment of police has become a real problem in SF with regard to pedestrians and bicyclists, because police are drivers. Essentially, as long as you aren't drunk and don't hit-and-run, you can kill someone with no penalty; if you're very unlucky, you might get a ticket.

One article: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Report-Less-Than-30-Per...

Suggested Google search: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=bicycle+police+kill...
 
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MilesF wrote:
When my wife and I were dating, she called me up one night in hysterics. She had gotten a speeding ticket. She insisted she had just passed someone, because they were going too slow. She had only gone above the speed limit for a few seconds to pass the guy, and had then gone back to the speed limit. But the cop gave her a ticket anyway. I listened to her throw a fit about it for probably 15 minutes before I said 'Honey, were you speeding?' 'Yes.' 'Then you deserved the ticket, you broke the law. End of story.'

Well, assuming a two-lane road (so you're passing against oncoming traffic and a fast pass is a safe pass), California laws, and the California Highway Patrol: passing safely would trump the speed limit. She would not be ticketed by the vast majority of CHP officers. Equally, going with the flow of traffic trumps the speed limit; the vast majority of CHP will not go after anyone in smooth traffic going 75 in a 65. However, if a CHP cruiser or motorcycle can sneak up on you, you're not paying enough attention: you're toast.

The law says, "Don't go over the speed limit." The law also says, "Safety first."
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sikeospi wrote:
Police in Western nations have also taken to harassing peaceful citizens for trivial laws while refusing to go after real criminals.

"In London I once parked outside a hotel where I proposed to stay. Parking was forbidden outside, but I stopped only to take my baggage inside. I received a parking ticket within sixty seconds, ..."


Parking tickets in the UK are not issued by the police, they are issued by traffic wardens.
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andyl wrote:
sikeospi wrote:
Police in Western nations have also taken to harassing peaceful citizens for trivial laws while refusing to go after real criminals.

"In London I once parked outside a hotel where I proposed to stay. Parking was forbidden outside, but I stopped only to take my baggage inside. I received a parking ticket within sixty seconds, ..."


Parking tickets in the UK are not issued by the police, they are issued by traffic wardens.


And driving in London is hellish enough without dipshits parking in the wrong place.
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MilesF wrote:


I've known a lot of police, the quota nonsense is just that


State, County, University or City?

And quota for what reason and to what end?


I have heard the both the same, and the opposite from cop friends.

 
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COMPNOR wrote:
Tragic yes, but don't try and make the kid to be some fucking innocent guy.


The problem in that case was the Police breaking their own rules. They're supposed to call off a dangerous chase if they know where the suspect lives and who they are- sufficient information for a later arrest.

Assuming of course that the web source I read was accurate.
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MilesF wrote:
If a person commits a crime, they are, at that point, by definition, a criminal. To say the cops should be going after 'real' criminals is ridiculous.


Gradation of seriousness and communal standards of criminality.
 
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MilesF wrote:
Call it 'Puppycide', then show a full grown rottweiler.

When a cop shoots a dog that's coming after him, or acting aggressively towards him, I'm not going to gripe about it. Is there a reason the cop sees a potential risk there? Maybe because the dog isn't on a chain? Maybe because it's coming towards him, barking and growling? Where's the responsible owner, who should have the dog in his house, in his backyard, or on a leash? Where's the responsible dog owner who shouldn't be committing a crime (or being busted for a warrant) when he's walking his dog?

And yes, we all know that dogs aren't mean, it's the owners. How does the cop know whether or not the owner is a good guy? Especially if he's being busted for something illegal.. Ever notice how quiet owners of certain types of dogs get when their animals turn and kill their 4 year old kid? The same people who scream the loudest that their breed is slandered and it's all a matter of how you raise them.

Pit bulls and rottweilers especially are frequently bought by punk thugs for fighting, or for showing their power in an area. When you live in places where you see those types of dogs being kicked in the street by their owners, just so they can toughen them up and make them mean, you don't question so often when one gets shot.

I've had a friend from childhood who is now crippled because he was walking down the street when a 'well-raised' pitbull decided he'd make a good meal. I've had 2 dogs attacked (1 of them twice) by pitbulls while being walked. The last one wouldn't let go and its owner had to pry its mouth open with a claw hammer (in the process, he lost a finger). As far as I'm concerned, if the dog is out roaming the streets and acts aggressively, put it down just like any other wild animal in town.
I wholly agree, the police are there to protect me from arseholes who think owning an 'fighting' dog makes them hard (I have actually heard that 'justification').

What do people really want, to wait until someone is injured before a dog is dealt with?

Also if I can shoot a human being because I think they are a threat, why not a dog?
 
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CaffeineBot wrote:
MilesF wrote:
If a person commits a crime, they are, at that point, by definition, a criminal. To say the cops should be going after 'real' criminals is ridiculous.


Gradation of seriousness and communal standards of criminality.
And 'real criminals' are always people breaking the laws you do not break. Drive past a school at 90mph during school hours, well that's persecution if you get pulled up (I drive better fast), go after 'real criminals' (like people who paint on walls).
 
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Fwing wrote:
andyl wrote:
sikeospi wrote:
Police in Western nations have also taken to harassing peaceful citizens for trivial laws while refusing to go after real criminals.

"In London I once parked outside a hotel where I proposed to stay. Parking was forbidden outside, but I stopped only to take my baggage inside. I received a parking ticket within sixty seconds, ..."


Parking tickets in the UK are not issued by the police, they are issued by traffic wardens.


And driving in London is hellish enough without dipshits parking in the wrong place.


And England + US isn't "Western Nations".
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Maybe a little off topic, but I heard some interviewee on NPR recently say that many US police departments are becoming more like paramilitary organizations - amping up the firepower of their weapons, becoming more military in the way they do things. I don't remember details.

I thought it was odd because it's the first I'd heard of this. I don't remember which interview exactly.

Can anyone corroborate? Disturbing, if true.
 
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That's been happening for a long time. The race riots in the 1960s caused some of it. Then the 1997 North Hollywood bank robbery, where the robbers had fully automatic weapons and body armor, motivated PDs to make sure every officer had an AR-15 or similar in his trunk. The various mass shootings haven't reduced the police's desire to maintain peace through superior firepower.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
That's been happening for a long time. The race riots in the 1960s caused some of it. Then the 1997 North Hollywood bank robbery, where the robbers had fully automatic weapons and body armor, motivated PDs to make sure every officer had an AR-15 or similar in his trunk. The various mass shootings haven't reduced the police's desire to maintain peace through superior firepower.
Guess what, if your criminals are as well armed as an army your police have to be as well. If you make your country a war zone it will be policed by an army.
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There was an incident in San Jose 5 years ago where a cop shot off the hindquarters of a dog that was trying to hide under a car. :-(

Thee was a lot more going on, but the empathetic reaction to the shooting of 3 dogs that day was probably a big factor in the $900,000 civil settlement, which (unusually) included personal liability for several of the police officers involved.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/9thUSCircuit%20unreasonable%2...
http://overlawyered.com/2006/02/hells-angels-get-990-k-for-d...
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slatersteven wrote:
Guess what, if your criminals are as well armed as an army your police have to be as well. If you make your country a war zone it will be policed by an army.

The weapons and body armor used by the robbers were illegal.
 
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Tall_Walt wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Guess what, if your criminals are as well armed as an army your police have to be as well. If you make your country a war zone it will be policed by an army.

The weapons and body armor used by the robbers were illegal.
Did I say otherwise, I would however point out that there are those who do think you should be able to get assault rules on the civilian market (and body Armour is not illegal).
 
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