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Subject: What happened? rss

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David Bernier
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A PREMEMPTIVE START

I played my first ever game of Chaos in the Old World tonight. We were four total and two had read the rules thoroughly, a third read them quickly and the fourth didn't read them.

We started playing at 7pm and the game ended at 9pm. Perfect lenght, simple enough rules, well balanced, enough complexity and decisions to make, awesome components and theme...but something didn't clicked...and we can't figure out what it is.

************************************************************************

WHAT DID WE DO WRONG?

We didn't devastate a single region during the game, Khorne simply spawned 1 figure everywhere to advance his dial 2 times a turn, Tzeetch (me) finished the game with only 5 VP while the others were at 20+, Old World cards didn't do anything major and we even got the one that forced us to draw another right away.

I blame inexperience from us that's for sure but most games I still feel some kind of satisfaction at the end but here I flet I didn't do a thing. It's a weird feeling when everyone around the table is psyched at first and end really disappointed.

What i'll do is play with another group, a group I know loves games and a group that is a bit more talkative and fun. I'm sure that weighted a lot in the overall feel of the evening.

************************************************************************

TURN STRUCTURE RIGHT?

But help me here, maybe we did something terribly wrong to mess up the game? Turn 1: Draw an Old World card and apply it, draw cards, invoke stuff (1 mini OR 1 card per turn until everyone is at 0), battles (1 round of battle per region in region order), devastate and corrupt, and rinse/score stuff/advance dials/etc...that's the order of things right?

Turns seems a bit weird and clunky but it was our first game so nothing major. I still wanted more from this game. From the box to the components everything is there but still something is not right.

************************************************************************

STRATEGIES FOR THE GODS THAT DIDN'T FELT LIKE GODS

- Khorne: Simple as it can be, kill figures and turn that dial. That player played that right and won.

- Nurgle: Should have lots of figures on the board and should dominate the best régions but Khorne was always there to kill stuff.

- Tzeentch: Lots of low cost cards, that I played everytime I could, but that didn't made any difference in my frustrating loss and low VP (5 at that end of the game). I made sure to concentrate on regions with Warpstones but that didn't do it, at all. I also made sure to let others spend their points so that often I was the only one left with points so I could manipulate the board a bit...but nah, denied.

- Slaanesh: Didn't played enough cards? Misplayed some? He did concentrate on the Noble tokens so it helped him a bit. Wasn't enough opportunist?

************************************************************************

WE ALMOST QUIT

We don't know what happened and 1 turn before we would lose the game due to having 1 Old World card left, Khorne won with dial. At that point one player proposed to stop the game, which I denied and most agreed to finish the game propoerly.

************************************************************************

GONNA TRY IT AGAIN

I'll give the game some toher chances cause I want to like it and want it to be liked. I know the perfect people to play CitOW with and gonna summon them soon.

************************************************************************

HOW DID YOU LIKE MY CHAOTIC AND COMPLETELY HIDEOUS LAYOUT?

Don't hesitate to comment if you think we missed some critical rules, I would highly appreciate some kind of advice for my next game since, as you can see, i'm at a complete loss about what happened tonight.

Thanks all for reading through this horrible report!
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salem .
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But you do end the game when Khorne gets his dial win. You don't keep playing.
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David Bernier
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Yeah I know thats what we did. My sentence is a bit weird.
It was the turn before that one player wanted to finish it...but then Khorne won.
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TTorres
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Just consider it your Learning Game™ and play again, preferably within the next couple of weeks. In my opinion Khorne is one of the easiest to derail, but will often seem overpowered to the new player.

Did Khorne spawn in adjacent regions? If so, and he was so spread out, wouldn't it have been easy to kill at least one of his figs? His cultists don't start the game with the ability to attack.

Again, if I were in your shoes I'd reread the rulebook then play again soon. While it certainly may not be your cup of tea, it's one of my favorite games and only gets better the more I play it. Your description doesn't sound like a typical play, but a first timer's play.

Good luck!
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David Bernier
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Yeah Khorne was really spread out and followed the rules for spawning. The problem is: Exploding dice!

Khorne had AT LEAST 1 die explode per turn. While others, on 3 dice, saw misses over misses. He was really Lucky with his rolls and for Khorne it's just too much.

I didn't manage to roll enough to kill at least 1 figure during the game and was mostly killed every turn with no one on the board.

I think i'm the one that liked the game the most, even though i'm left with some weird feelings about it, I know i'm gonna like this game the more I play it. I'll just have to carefully choose the players next time.
 
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K
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I see no obvious rules error then in your report, assuming you were handling scoring (for domination and ruined regions) correctly.

Rhezuss wrote:
We didn't devastate a single region during the game


Here do you mean no regions were ruined, or none dominated?

In general, next time focus more on ruining regions and dropping corruption in reigons that are going to ruin (so you will be a contributor) and you should score much higher. I suspect you may have been paying too much for warriors and not enough corruption. For defending yourself you should have cards that will disrupt or discourage Khorne, and when you don't, you can run from him and advise others to do so to not give him so many easy kills

Rhezuss wrote:

We started playing at 7pm and the game ended at 9pm. Perfect lenght, simple enough rules, well balanced, enough complexity and decisions to make, awesome components and theme...but something didn't clicked...and we can't figure out what it is....I'll give the game some toher chances cause I want to like it and want it to be liked. I know the perfect people to play CitOW with and gonna summon them soon.


If you try it a few more times and still aren't feeling it, you should try the expansion cards instead (or vice versa if you were already playing them) before you give up on it. Mentioning that since I saw in the other thread that you own both. The two sets of cards actually have a distinct flavor, to the point where I think it's realistic to not enjoy one set and enjoy the other. They're more like "alternate games" to each other than an "expansion" in the traditional sense, which is pretty cool. I do not recommend switching right away though, it takes some games to learn either set.
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David Bernier
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Good ideas about the other set of cards.

Sorry about some terms I have the game in french so maybe I translated a bit quickly without checking the good term.

Yeah I meant ruin a region. None were ruined during our game but one was close at 11 tokens on it. Domination happened quite a bit though but we wanted to see more ruination happen.

Again, I blame our inexperience and being our first game I won't give up on it that soon. I want to replay this game and will try to make it happen soon.
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anthony elmer
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Khorne is the easiest character to play with when your new. His lath to victory is simple amd straight-forward. As you play more often, you will notice the scales tip toward tzeech and slaneesh(sp?). It just takes a few play to grasp each characters path to victory. In your game the key to slowing khorne was trying yo stop his double dial. Once he gets that rollingyour toast.
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Joel Schuster
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Khorne got lucky, you were too inefficient. End of story. Play another game
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Martin Presley
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Whenever anyone starts playing CitOW, they say one of two things. Either "How does Khorne not win every game?" or "How does Khorne ever win?". A big part of the game's strategy revolves around Khorne, since he is the biggest wrecking ball and has the easiest time getting dial ticks, but is also easily frustrated by running away or detremental Chaos Cards. Keep playing and you'll see the other powers start to emerge on their own terms.

I've won with everything except Tzeench, mainly because I suck at using their cards, which are really tricky and timing sensitive. Almost got it the last time, even with a first turn with zero dial tics, it still came down to a roll of the dice.
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Vaughan Cockell
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As other have said, Khorne is the easiest power to play, but the traditional response of other powers is to clump up and almost reinforce each other away from where Khorne is so that it is difficult for him to get his second dial click. You were only marking defeated models 9cultists etc) for that and not commoners (cardboard tokens)? It has been a common beginner mistake to include both as the commoner deaths also get tracked.

Again others have said this, but there are a lot of cards to disrupt Khorne, and early game often includes the other powers focussing on just one or two areas and reinforcing those instead of spreading themselves widely. If you can get some table talk going with scheming to support then later backstab each other the Khorne control should come together more.

Enjoy!
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Joel Schuster
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Also, 5VP in 6 turns and no ruination at all is pretty bad.

You have to learn alot of things in this game and you can improve your efficiency in many further games. There will be games where Khorne has less luck with events and dice and so there is more room to breathe for the rest.

As a rule of thumb, a first ruination should happen in turn 2 or 3. You should be able to make 50VP in 5 turns if you want to win as Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh. If you are good, you can do that in 4 turns.

Browse the board section "strategy" if you want to read my articles about the individual gods. I also posted a number of session reports such as this: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/606660/slaanesh-the-prince-o...

Good luck
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Alex H.
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It seems to me that three things happened here:
- uneven distribution of luck with the dice
not much you can do about that

- conflicting strategies for Slaanesh and Tzeentch
you wrote that you focused on warpstone areas and yet you measure your general performance in this game in VPs. Maybe you tried too much at once. You will not be fully competitive when trying to win both by dial and VPs. You can start by aiming for both but later, you will have to adjust. So how far down the dial were you in the end? How about Slaanesh?

- read the board, adjust, play cards, kill figures
this is a bit more complex. Note that I do not (!), absolutely do not suggest open diplomacy in this game. However, when Khorne pulls ahead all the other players should recognize this and adjust by targeting him. For Tzeentch especially, this means playing your cards smartly. Teleport him away early, raise the cost for summoning, give him a hard time. Nurgle likewise can protect his followers quite efficiently with some of his cards. Kill a few of Khorne's guys so that he has to resummon them. Once he is omnipresent and noone kills his followers, he can comfortable focus on playing cards and create real havoc.
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Jack Francisco
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You may want to download the game aid by Universal Head in the files section. It could help you run the game in case you had fear of making errors.
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David Bernier
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First I don't say Khorne is OP or too strong, I say he was way OP because of his rolls hahaha. That player was damn lucky with those rolls and it helped him a lot.

I actually can't wait to play again. First games are sometimes a bit weird and maybe I expected something more about CitOW. But I know it's better then it seems and will keep this game and play it again and again until I win with Tzeentch and eradicated Khorne!
 
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Brain Less
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You know that corruption is one token per Cultists right? Our games never goes past the 5th turn, as we Ruin the fifth Region. Khorne is the beginner best friend, but as soon as people knows how to manage him, it's very hard to win with him. Don't be afraid to leave Khorne alone, moving your cultits elsewhere.
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David Bernier
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Hey Vuud from DN! I'm GomJabbar there!
Merci pour le hint, je vais garder ça en tête pour les prochaine parties.

In fact that's exactly what I did but a bit too late. I started to take and corrup regions no one looked at and it started to go better for me. That's when my dial started to turn and corruption was going well.

But then Khorne won and everyone started blasting the game and saying Khorne was unbeatable. I was actually the first that read a lot about this game and nothing really choked me. They're the kind of gamers that don't give second chances and even though I kept telling them this was our first game and we were 4 newbs, they still don't want to play again.

Newbs!
 
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Aaron Bohm
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A couple things.

So turn progression is play a card / play or move a mini. The moving part is important.

Khorne plays first and his warriors cost more power-wise that the cultists or Nurgle's Warriors. Time is not on Khornes side. For this reason, especially with Tzeentch, play as many 0 cost cards as you can (even if they don't do anything) with the idea of delaying the game and bleeding action points away from Khorne.

Once he's out, reacting to him is simple: move away from his regions as best you can. Stopping him from double clicking is paramount, and it's especially easy to do on the first round (remember, he only double clicks if he has the most dial tokens, a tie won't get him there).

Also, don't spread out. Khorne gets a tick for every region he kills someone in, not for every kill. IE if you were all in one region, the most he could collect would be 1 dial counter (with exception to some cards I believe). Now that also doesn't mean you should try to do this, as Khorne most likely will send in a lot of guys anyway just to kill you all off but the point is too many times I see a Nurgle player try and dominate multiple regions and get slaughtered many different places or Tzeentch spreading out for dial ticks and priority #1 is not letting Khorne get a bunch of kills in different regions - once that can be accomplished you can try for your own goals.



For Nurgle, Domination isn't the only/best way for him to get points... so that isn't something he should be focusing on. You get waaaay more points from corrupting and he's the best at it. Also, as far as dial ticks, forget it. Nurgle is never going to win with dial ticks... ever. In fact, look where the Populous regions are in relation to the board set up; they are all in the middle.

The middle of the board is problematic. Since Khorne has to spawn/move adjacently, he usually starts in the middle and spreads out from there. That makes the southern most and northern most tips the best place to be. Usually one or more of the other gods will huddle in these two places and build up a bunch of guys, doing their best to kill off or teleport out Khornes minions when they get near.

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Marty Kane
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Our first game we mis-played the rule about only moving or placing people in countries adjacent to the one you already have people in. That let Khorne run rampant a little more than he should have.

Also after the first time we played this we spent at least two more hours talking about what we could have done better with each of our gods and discussing how they interacted. I hope your group gets excited about the depth in this game.
 
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David Bernier
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Never Knows Best wrote:
A couple things.

So turn progression is play a card / play or move a mini. The moving part is important.

Khorne plays first and his warriors cost more power-wise that the cultists or Nurgle's Warriors. Time is not on Khornes side. For this reason, especially with Tzeentch, play as many 0 cost cards as you can (even if they don't do anything) with the idea of delaying the game and bleeding action points away from Khorne.

Once he's out, reacting to him is simple: move away from his regions as best you can. Stopping him from double clicking is paramount, and it's especially easy to do on the first round (remember, he only double clicks if he has the most dial tokens, a tie won't get him there).

Also, don't spread out. Khorne gets a tick for every region he kills someone in, not for every kill. IE if you were all in one region, the most he could collect would be 1 dial counter (with exception to some cards I believe). Now that also doesn't mean you should try to do this, as Khorne most likely will send in a lot of guys anyway just to kill you all off but the point is too many times I see a Nurgle player try and dominate multiple regions and get slaughtered many different places or Tzeentch spreading out for dial ticks and priority #1 is not letting Khorne get a bunch of kills in different regions - once that can be accomplished you can try for your own goals.



For Nurgle, Domination isn't the only/best way for him to get points... so that isn't something he should be focusing on. You get waaaay more points from corrupting and he's the best at it. Also, as far as dial ticks, forget it. Nurgle is never going to win with dial ticks... ever. In fact, look where the Populous regions are in relation to the board set up; they are all in the middle.

The middle of the board is problematic. Since Khorne has to spawn/move adjacently, he usually starts in the middle and spreads out from there. That makes the southern most and northern most tips the best place to be. Usually one or more of the other gods will huddle in these two places and build up a bunch of guys, doing their best to kill off or teleport out Khornes minions when they get near.



Wow great post Aaron, thanks man!

First of all I checked yesterday to see if we made rule errors and we didn't. Adjacency when spawning/moving figures, dial tokens conditions, domination/corruption, everything was flawless on that part.

I took the time to think a bit more about the game. and here's what I realised/concluded:

- First major gampeplay flaw, everyone was too spread out. Like you said and that's what I realised midgame, we were too spread ou and Khorne simply spawned 1 fighter in every region he could and with his awesome rolls always had from 3 to 5 tokens on his dial.

- We didn't move a single unit. We only spawned new ones. That I think is the second major flaw in our gameplay.

- I think some didn't played Chaos cards that much. I was the one, as Tzeentch, that played the most due to the low cost of most.

- Most left Khorne do his thing without interfering even when they realised how close he was to win.

Next game will go better especially with cool gamers. I'll make sure to not ever play with this group. This was a PITA and a boring evening.
 
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David Bernier
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mekane wrote:
Also after the first time we played this we spent at least two more hours talking about what we could have done better with each of our gods and discussing how they interacted. I hope your group gets excited about the depth in this game.


That'S EXACTLY what I try to do but all they were syaing was how Khorne was OP and how imbalance the game was.

Worst group ever, seriously. I couldn't make them listen to me and explain how we played and some errors we did. They were closed to any discussion.

They're out.
 
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TTorres
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One other detail: did you count warpstones as corruption?
 
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David Bernier
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Tonman wrote:
One other detail: did you count warpstones as corruption?


Yes I did.

Question about combat: When the attacker hits, it's his choice to choose which figure he hits right?

What happened regularly was that the others mostly killed cultists and not fighters/demons. so most turns we placed minimal corruption tokens since not many cultists were left.
 
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Aaron Bohm
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Rhezuss wrote:

Question about combat: When the attacker hits, it's his choice to choose which figure he hits right?

What happened regularly was that the others mostly killed cultists and not fighters/demons. so most turns we placed minimal corruption tokens since not many cultists were left.


Yes, attacker chooses and attacking the cultists is usually the correct choice, strategically. Slaanesh for example has warriors with 2 defense and it would make almost no sense to attack these if a cultist was present.

The only exception usually is that all the other gods should concentrate on killing off Khornes warriors. Until Khorne gets his cultist upgrade, his warriors are his cheapest source of attack and killing them off means he needs to resummon them. You can break his "supply line" so to speak and push him back, effectively making him spend half his points or more just to get back to the top/bottom of the board (and Tzeentch should be teleporting him like crazy).

Nurgle especially should be keeping Khornes peeps in check. Action point for action point, Nurgle only needs to spend 1 to summon his warriors and Khorns warriors only have 1 defense.

Another thing to keep in mind is that all attack (with exception to cards) happens "simultaneously" which means even if a warrior is killed, it still gets to roll its dice for attack.
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