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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Overlord Deck re-shuffle questions. rss

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DJ DJ
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Rulebook wrote:
When the overlord player draws the last card from his deck, he simply shuffles the discard pile to create a new deck.


Let's assume that OL has 1 last card in his deck and no cards in discard pile. When OL draws that card, he shuffles discard pile of 0 cards and forms a new deck of 0 cards. Later OL plays a Dark Charm. When exactly Dark Charm is shuffled back into OL Deck? Before or after it resolves? Or maybe it is not shuffled because in order to shuffle discard into the deck, the OL must draw a card?

In case hero passes Dark Charm test, the OL draws a card. What happens if hero passes? Does the OL draw the Dark Charm back or not? If OL gets the Dark Charm back, could he play it on the same hero again? I guess not, but what about different hero?

What happens if hero passes Dark Charm, but OL plays Wicked Laughter. What happens with the cards in case hero passes the Wicked Laughter test?
 
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Dennis Brakmann
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Releesha wrote:
Rulebook wrote:
When the overlord player draws the last card from his deck, he simply shuffles the discard pile to create a new deck.


Let's assume that OL has 1 last card in his deck and no cards in discard pile. When OL draws that card, he shuffles discard pile of 0 cards and forms a new deck of 0 cards. Later OL plays a Dark Charm. When exactly Dark Charm is shuffled back into OL Deck? Before or after it resolves? Or maybe it is not shuffled because in order to shuffle discard into the deck, the OL must draw a card?

In case hero passes Dark Charm test, the OL draws a card. What happens if hero passes? Does the OL draw the Dark Charm back or not? If OL gets the Dark Charm back, could he play it on the same hero again? I guess not, but what about different hero?

What happens if hero passes Dark Charm, but OL plays Wicked Laughter. What happens with the cards in case hero passes the Wicked Laughter test?


Just to be clear (and to avoid misunderstandings): We're assuming, that the OL has 1 last card in his deck and there are no cards in the discard pile, so he has (at least) 14 cards in hand?

Since the condition is "draws the last card", I would assume your kind of constantly shuffling your zero card discard pile to constantly create a new zero card OL deck. Repeat.

As soon as your discard pile consists of more than zero card (as in: you finally get your act together and play one ) it gets solo-shuffled and forms your new OL deck. Does not matter which card it is, as long as it is going to the discard pile.
 
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PC ichigo
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Let's assume that OL has 1 last card in his deck and no cards in discard pile. When OL draws that card, he shuffles discard pile of 0 cards and forms a new deck of 0 cards. Later OL plays a Dark Charm. When exactly Dark Charm is shuffled back into OL Deck? Before or after it resolves? Or maybe it is not shuffled because in order to shuffle discard into the deck, the OL must draw a card?

After resolving the effects of an Overlord card, place it faceup in the discard pile. So, you have to wait for your next turn to draw in order to shuffled it back.



In case hero passes Dark Charm test, the OL draws a card. What happens if hero passes? Does the OL draw the Dark Charm back or not? If OL gets the Dark Charm back, could he play it on the same hero again? I guess not, but what about different hero?


Err...why the Overlord draws a card because of hero passes the test??
Anyway, the Dark Charm will wait for you to draw next turn.



What happens if hero passes Dark Charm, but OL plays Wicked Laughter. What happens with the cards in case hero passes the Wicked Laughter test?


Both cards go in discard pile, next turn you will have 50% chance now to draw Dark Charm back, since it shuffled. : )
 
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PC ichigo
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Ah, so the real question here is that "When the discard pile go to shuffle when draw deck is empty?".

I'm not 100% sure about the answer myself.
But generally (and in most of the game), you would shuffle back when you have to draw and there is nothing to draw, right?

Or anyone play it other way?? : )
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Robin REEVE
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pcichigo wrote:
But generally (and in most of the game), you would shuffle back when you have to draw and there is nothing to draw, right?
Yes.
And that is how it is done in many games where one exhausts the draw pile, you are right.
 
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DJ DJ
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Robin wrote:
pcichigo wrote:
But generally (and in most of the game), you would shuffle back when you have to draw and there is nothing to draw, right?
Yes.
And that is how it is done in many games where one exhausts the draw pile, you are right.


And I agree that this would be better this way, but it is not as I quoted the rules about shuffling for Descent. The discard is shuffled when the OL draws the last card.

Dark Charm instructs you to draw a card in case hero passes the attribute test. The same goes for Wicked Laughter.

So is my assumption ok?

1) OL has 15 cards in hand, and plays Dark Charm at the begining of his turn (Before drawing a card for that turn.)
2) Dark Charm is being resolved, hero makes an attribute test and passes. Dark Charm instructs the OL to draw a card, but the deck is empty. No card is drawn.
3) Dark Charm goes to discard pile and is immediately shuffled back into OL deck
4) OL draws a card for the turn
5) Since it is still the begining of turn, the OL plays Dark Charm on another hero.

If so, it is sometimes very important, when cards are resolving and when exactly should I put them into discard pile. For example: Word of Misery. It's effect is until the end of turn. But does it resolves immediately or should be kept in play area, and go to discard pile at the end of turn?
 
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BRAD HUNT
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How does the overlord ever have 15 cards in his hand?
 
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DJ DJ
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MARDUK66 wrote:
How does the overlord ever have 15 cards in his hand?


Easily. 4 Players game, you start with 4 and on your first turn you draw 5th. One of your cards lets you draw 2 additional cards. You do not play a single card in Encounter 1 of the quest, because you don't care about the result (Such as Encounter 1 of Fat Goblin quest.) and you do everything in your power to delay the heroes, such as run with objective token with your moster. Then, you can accidentaly kill a hero with monster attack and that further increases your draw. Finally you may have Relic that gives you additional card on surge, and cards that allow you to draw 2 more if you defeat a hero. Finally there are quest where you splitted and downed all heroes but the scenario condition is not met, so you draw 5 cards per turn. downing the entire party turn after turn until you have your hand full.

It is important OL strategy to keep his hand very large because it gives him much more control over the second part of the scenario. The longer I can maintain this state, the bigger my chances of winning.
 
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BRAD HUNT
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Sounds like alot of what if's? I have personally never seen it and we play with 4. You would have to get the exact cards you need by blind draw. Although your tactic is legal, it not seem like it would be very fun as a hero to be in a game where the overlord constantly does this. As an aside, what overlord card allows you to draw 2 cards?
 
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Alessandro Carpenito
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Releesha wrote:
Robin wrote:
pcichigo wrote:
But generally (and in most of the game), you would shuffle back when you have to draw and there is nothing to draw, right?
Yes.
And that is how it is done in many games where one exhausts the draw pile, you are right.


And I agree that this would be better this way, but it is not as I quoted the rules about shuffling for Descent. The discard is shuffled when the OL draws the last card.

Dark Charm instructs you to draw a card in case hero passes the attribute test. The same goes for Wicked Laughter.

So is my assumption ok?

1) OL has 15 cards in hand, and plays Dark Charm at the begining of his turn (Before drawing a card for that turn.)
2) Dark Charm is being resolved, hero makes an attribute test and passes. Dark Charm instructs the OL to draw a card, but the deck is empty. No card is drawn.
3) Dark Charm goes to discard pile and is immediately shuffled back into OL deck
4) OL draws a card for the turn
5) Since it is still the begining of turn, the OL plays Dark Charm on another hero.

If so, it is sometimes very important, when cards are resolving and when exactly should I put them into discard pile. For example: Word of Misery. It's effect is until the end of turn. But does it resolves immediately or should be kept in play area, and go to discard pile at the end of turn?


See the rulebook though, page 10: at the beginning of their turn, the OL draws a card, then they can play any card that can be played "at the beginning of the OL turn". I'd say you have to draw a card as the very first thing by that interpretation - by the time Dark Charm resolves, you already have made your draw for the turn.
Also on page 16 it states that you discard a card when it's done resolving. I'd say this applies to Word of Misery as well: you discard it when it would have no effect anymore. And if you knock out a hero with Dark Charm, I'd also say you draw a card (gain a threat) before Dark Charm goes in the discard pile.
And building up your hand is easy in some quests, if the players play bad and you don't need cards to kill them. I'm waiting to play the second encounter of Honor Among Thieves with a full hand because players got a little too cavalier with turning objectives too fast.
 
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DJ DJ
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Vidyaraja wrote:
Releesha wrote:
Robin wrote:
pcichigo wrote:
But generally (and in most of the game), you would shuffle back when you have to draw and there is nothing to draw, right?
Yes.
And that is how it is done in many games where one exhausts the draw pile, you are right.


And I agree that this would be better this way, but it is not as I quoted the rules about shuffling for Descent. The discard is shuffled when the OL draws the last card.

Dark Charm instructs you to draw a card in case hero passes the attribute test. The same goes for Wicked Laughter.

So is my assumption ok?

1) OL has 15 cards in hand, and plays Dark Charm at the begining of his turn (Before drawing a card for that turn.)
2) Dark Charm is being resolved, hero makes an attribute test and passes. Dark Charm instructs the OL to draw a card, but the deck is empty. No card is drawn.
3) Dark Charm goes to discard pile and is immediately shuffled back into OL deck
4) OL draws a card for the turn
5) Since it is still the begining of turn, the OL plays Dark Charm on another hero.

If so, it is sometimes very important, when cards are resolving and when exactly should I put them into discard pile. For example: Word of Misery. It's effect is until the end of turn. But does it resolves immediately or should be kept in play area, and go to discard pile at the end of turn?


See the rulebook though, page 10: at the beginning of their turn, the OL draws a card, then they can play any card that can be played "at the beginning of the OL turn". I'd say you have to draw a card as the very first thing by that interpretation - by the time Dark Charm resolves, you already have made your draw for the turn.
Also on page 16 it states that you discard a card when it's done resolving. I'd say this applies to Word of Misery as well: you discard it when it would have no effect anymore. And if you knock out a hero with Dark Charm, I'd also say you draw a card (gain a threat) before Dark Charm goes in the discard pile.
And building up your hand is easy in some quests, if the players play bad and you don't need cards to kill them. I'm waiting to play the second encounter of Honor Among Thieves with a full hand because players got a little too cavalier with turning objectives too fast.


Erm, but you can also see the overlord turn summary and there you have:

Overlord Turn Summary wrote:

Start of turn:
* Start of turn abilities
* Draw 1 Overlord card
* Refresh cards


And the FAQ:
Unofficial FAQ wrote:
Q: In Dawnblade Encounter 1, can the Overlord (draw a card and/or) play Dark Charm before the Ray of Sunlight moves and force a hero off of Arcite's Tomb? Or does the Ray of Sunlight move before ANYTHING else the Overlord can do?

A: Since it's a timing conflict for start of turn overlord effects, he would still draw his card and could play something like Dark Charm to attempt to move the hero away. (1)


Given that, I'm quite sure you can play Dark Charm before you draw cards.
 
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DJ DJ
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MARDUK66 wrote:
Sounds like alot of what if's? I have personally never seen it and we play with 4. You would have to get the exact cards you need by blind draw. Although your tactic is legal, it not seem like it would be very fun as a hero to be in a game where the overlord constantly does this. As an aside, what overlord card allows you to draw 2 cards?


Change Overlord then.

Cards from base set that will make you draw your entire deck faster:
* Schemes (1 card)
* Diabolic Power (1 card)
* Unholy Ritual (2 cards)
* Bloodlust (2 cards)

Currently I have just Unholy Ritual and have no problems with keeping my entire hand of cards at the end of each encounter 1. And heroes have Wildlander with Danger Sense, and are making use of him whenever they can.

Your Overlord probably plays too much cards during encounter 1 or doesn't know how to delay heroes. It is of course not possible in every scenario as some encounter 1 scenarios can end rather quickly, but there are some, that you can prolong.
 
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No No

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One aspect of this question has been unanswered, in my mind, and I was hoping for some input from others because I ran into this exact situation tonight.

Quoting from page 16 of the rulebook:

"When the overlord player draws the last card from his deck, he simply shuffles the discard pile to create a new deck."

In our game tonight, the overlord had 14 cards in his hand, and zero in his discard pile (don't ask, the heroes managed to turn an encounter into a bloodbath and were knocked down about 8 times).
He drew the 15th card.
He has now drawn the last card from his deck, so per the quoted rule, he shuffles his discard pile (0 cards) to create a new deck, and now has a 0 card deck.
He played a few cards, now has 12 cards in his hand and 3 cards in the discard pile. However, he still has 0 cards in his deck.
Based on the explicit wording of the rule, the overlord shuffles his discard pile to create a new deck ONLY when he draws the last card from his deck. Not when he tries to draw a card and is unable, nor when he has a deck size of 0, or any other wording. The rule says: WHEN the overlord player draws the last card from his deck, THEN he shuffles the discard pile to create a new deck.
My reading of this (being a rules nazi and, as a hero in this encounter-gone-wrong, in a bit of a bad mood) is that based on the writing of the rules, the only way to trigger a deck shuffle is by drawing that last card of the overlord deck. Since he can no longer draw a card and therefore draw the last card from the deck (as there are none in his deck to draw) he can no longer trigger a deck shuffle and is stuck with the cards in his hand until the end of the scenario when the overlord deck goes back to him to be modified and prepared for the next scenario.

I freely admit that this is almost certainly not the intended spirit of the rule, but am I wrong in my reading of the plain text? Is there another rule in the rulebook or in errata anywhere to explain around this situation?

Any help would be appreciated.
 
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The answer to your question is not in rules nor official FAQ, but has already been asked to FFG:

3) Overlord deck reshuffling occurs when Overlord draws the last card from the deck. Assuming Overlord has no cards in the discard pile, what happens? When exactly the new deck is formed? This is important for example when Overlord plays Dark Charm. Can overlord draw Dark Charm from the effect of Dark Charm when hero passes a willpower test? Can Dark Charm be played before the card draw for the turn, and then used again after the card draw? When exactly a card is considered resolved in case of cards with longer lasting effects like Word of Misery?

Justin Kemppainen wrote:
3) If the draw deck and discard pile are both empty, then the next card the overlord discards is "shuffled," then immediately becoming the only card in the draw pile.

For Dark Charm: The overlord can draw this card at the start of his turn and immediately play it. He could also play the card before his card draw, then redraw it.

For Word of Misery: The card is discarded at the end of the overlord turn. Now, it is still possible to play something like Blood Rage at the end of the turn, still receiving the effects of Word of Misery.
 
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