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Zombicide Season 2: Prison Outbreak» Forums » Rules

Subject: Dog companions and extra activations rss

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Thibaud Dejardin
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Here are two questions after a few plays. Maybe i missed something obvious.

1-Companion dogs: Do they require to be "equipped (in hand)" to give their bonus and/or take actions. Or do they only have to be in the inventory?
If they only need to be in the inventory, is it exact that Moog will give +4 attack dices to someone dual wielding? That seems absurd.

2-About extra activations: Do toxic and berserk zombies benefit from these cards?
The rules seems to say No, but i'm not 100% sure. I can find good reasons to both interpretations.

The rules: PO page 13: "Berserker Zombies do not benefit from the extra activation cards of other Zombie types."

TCM page 6: "Toxic Zombies do not benefit from the extra activation
cards of other Zombie types."


Thank you!
 
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Thiago Aranha
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1- Companion Dog cards don't need to be equipped in hand, they just need to be in the inventory.

2- Berserker and Toxic zombies don't get an extra activation when an extra activation card for standard zombies is drawn. And since there are no extra activation cards for berserkes or toxic zombies...

As for your question on the Melee bonus provided by dogs to a dual wielder... well, I'd have to say that by the letter of the rule Moog would grant a +4 dice bonus (since the explanation for the "+1 die to Melee" skill clearly states that it applies to each weapon). But I agree with you that that is not only absurd, but also makes no sense for the dog to be more effective if the handler is wielding dual weapons. I'd rule that the dog's melee bonus is not applied to each weapon, but to the attack as a whole.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Moog is already more effective depending on which weapon is wielded. He's more likely to add kills with a 3+ weapon than he is with a 5+ weapon. Thus, it is not so absurd that he would also be more effective when the owner is swinging twice as many weapons... although I agree it does seem a little overpowered.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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Humm, you're right. But that is a necessity in order to keep the game streamlined, cause if you used the dog's accuracy level it would require that his roll be made separately. Adding the bonus only once, though, whether for a single or dual attack, is not a burden on the game in any way, so I'd personally go with that.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Loophole Master wrote:
makes no sense for the dog to be more effective if the handler is wielding dual weapons. I'd rule that the dog's melee bonus is not applied to each weapon, but to the attack as a whole.

The handler becomes more effective with dual weapons, not the dog. The dog just keeps the zombies at bay, as not even zombies want to approach a snarling, snapping dog.
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Jonah Rees
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Clipper wrote:
Moog is already more effective depending on which weapon is wielded. He's more likely to add kills with a 3+ weapon than he is with a 5+ weapon. Thus, it is not so absurd that he would also be more effective when the owner is swinging twice as many weapons


Well it is absurd really. How did pooch suddenly become quicker/learn to attack more efficiently just because it's owner picked up another machete. And if they put one of the machetes away, how come pooch suddenly forgets all of that. I'm not saying that it's not possible within the rules system, but it's pretty ridiculous and I'll be playing that it's added to the attack as a whole, even if an official ruling states otherwise.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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jonahmaul wrote:
Clipper wrote:
Moog is already more effective depending on which weapon is wielded. He's more likely to add kills with a 3+ weapon than he is with a 5+ weapon. Thus, it is not so absurd that he would also be more effective when the owner is swinging twice as many weapons


Well it is absurd really. How did pooch suddenly become quicker/learn to attack more efficiently just because it's owner picked up another machete. And if they put one of the machetes away, how come pooch suddenly forgets all of that. I'm not saying that it's not possible within the rules system, but it's pretty ridiculous and I'll be playing that it's added to the attack as a whole, even if an official ruling states otherwise.


I think Jeffrey's explanation hits the nail on the head, actually. The dog isn't doing the attacking represented by the extra dice, it herds the zombies like sheep and/or holds the zombies in place with its jaws so that they are easier to hit with the weapons, which are what are really getting the extra dice.

In other words, the dog gives you more time to attempt some more hits on other zombies with your action. If you are wielding two weapons during that time, you really should get the representation of the extra benefit on each weapon as you get enough time to try to attempt to hit more things with each weapon.
 
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Jonah Rees
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Clipper wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Clipper wrote:
Moog is already more effective depending on which weapon is wielded. He's more likely to add kills with a 3+ weapon than he is with a 5+ weapon. Thus, it is not so absurd that he would also be more effective when the owner is swinging twice as many weapons


Well it is absurd really. How did pooch suddenly become quicker/learn to attack more efficiently just because it's owner picked up another machete. And if they put one of the machetes away, how come pooch suddenly forgets all of that. I'm not saying that it's not possible within the rules system, but it's pretty ridiculous and I'll be playing that it's added to the attack as a whole, even if an official ruling states otherwise.


I think Jeffrey's explanation hits the nail on the head, actually. The dog isn't doing the attacking represented by the extra dice, it herds the zombies like sheep and/or holds the zombies in place with its jaws so that they are easier to hit with the weapons, which are what are really getting the extra dice.

In other words, the dog gives you more time to hit more zombies with your action. If you are wielding two weapons during that time, you really should get the representation of the extra benefit on each weapon.


Personally I don't think that makes sense seeing as you can send them off on their own to attack though. For me it's pretty clear that the benefit comes from having the dog help you attack rather than any herding (which isn't really necessary with zombies who are pretty easy to get in the same place anyway). Anything else I personally think it just justification to get an unwarranted extra attack dice. As I said before, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the wrong way to do it if it's your preference, but anything that makes the game easier for me is not much fun in most cases.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Dogs are optional, so they don't need to be used. Dogs are part survivor and part equipent. When going out on their own, they are in survivor mode.
When supporting a handler's attack, they are in equipment mode and add die to the hander's weapons like any other equipment card. The story we give to it to explain why is just the story we use to help explain the rule. The story doesn't make the rule, the rules give rise to the story. Knowing the rule is important so we know what we are breaking when we decide to do things differently. There are other ways around the rule other than breaking it. For example, you can have the dog handler give the dual wield weapons to someone else.
 
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Scott Hill
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jonahmaul wrote:
Clipper wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
Clipper wrote:
Moog is already more effective depending on which weapon is wielded. He's more likely to add kills with a 3+ weapon than he is with a 5+ weapon. Thus, it is not so absurd that he would also be more effective when the owner is swinging twice as many weapons


Well it is absurd really. How did pooch suddenly become quicker/learn to attack more efficiently just because it's owner picked up another machete. And if they put one of the machetes away, how come pooch suddenly forgets all of that. I'm not saying that it's not possible within the rules system, but it's pretty ridiculous and I'll be playing that it's added to the attack as a whole, even if an official ruling states otherwise.


I think Jeffrey's explanation hits the nail on the head, actually. The dog isn't doing the attacking represented by the extra dice, it herds the zombies like sheep and/or holds the zombies in place with its jaws so that they are easier to hit with the weapons, which are what are really getting the extra dice.

In other words, the dog gives you more time to hit more zombies with your action. If you are wielding two weapons during that time, you really should get the representation of the extra benefit on each weapon.


Personally I don't think that makes sense seeing as you can send them off on their own to attack though. For me it's pretty clear that the benefit comes from having the dog help you attack rather than any herding (which isn't really necessary with zombies who are pretty easy to get in the same place anyway). Anything else I personally think it just justification to get an unwarranted extra attack dice. As I said before, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the wrong way to do it if it's your preference, but anything that makes the game easier for me is not much fun in most cases.


They help you attack by jumping on them and biting them on the face. You then finish them off. Which is easier to do with two machetes than one.

That said, I personally think it's going to be +1 die (or +2 with Moog) per attack not per weapon.

Has anyone posted this in my 'big ... Questions for ...' thread yet?
 
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Jonah Rees
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longagoigo wrote:
Dogs are optional, so they don't need to be used. Dogs are part survivor and part equipent. When going out on their own, they are in survivor mode.
When supporting a handler's attack, they are in equipment mode and add die to the hander's weapons like any other equipment card. The story we give to it to explain why is just the story we use to help explain the rule. The story doesn't make the rule, the rules give rise to the story. Knowing the rule is important so we know what we are breaking when we decide to do things differently. There are other ways around the rule other than breaking it. For example, you can have the dog handler give the dual wield weapons to someone else.


Theme can be argued either way (as I've argued numerous times with regards to the shooting priority on here!), but personally I think it makes far more sense that they only add to the attack. I could be doing it wrong, but that's the way I will play it as I think it makes more sense (there really is no good reason for a dog to suddenly get better!). But as above, to each his own, there's no right or wrong way to do it. An official ruling would be nice so we know either way but with the game being so easy to house rule sure some people will continue to play it the way they feel is 'right'.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Has anyone posted this in my 'big ... Questions for ...' thread yet?


You
 
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Brad B
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I'll be going with +1 (or 2) die to the attack as well. Only because, since the bonus stacks with multiple dogs, it has the potential to get silly. Both of the American Bulldogs + dual Claw Hammers = 14 dice.
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Scott Hill
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jonahmaul wrote:
An official ruling would be nice so we know either way but with the game being so easy to house rule sure some people will continue to play it the way they feel is 'right'.


And, what with the bit about house rules in the back of the TCM rule book, the way one feels is 'right' is the official way to play!

 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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Ranerdar wrote:
I'll be going with +1 (or 2) die to the attack as well. Only because, since the bonus stacks with multiple dogs, it has the potential to get silly. Both of the American Bulldogs + dual Claw Hammers = 14 dice.


That's strong indeed! No need for ultrared weapons, especially if you have a +1 to dice roll skill.
Katana +wakizashi +2 moog is almost as strong: 4 wounds average per action spent... that is insane.

I'm seriously thinking about houseruling them so that they are not that powerful. I really like the "dog" concept, the fact they can attack from their own and that you can use them as zombie baits (which is strong enough!), but the +1 or +2 attack is really too powerful even for non duals. I think i'll only allow that bonus if in one hand.

But thanks anyway for the answers.

I think the "normal zombie only" extra activation mitigates somehow the too randomly deadly cards from season 1. Now each kind of zombie has its own strength and weakness.
-Toxic hurt if you kill them in same zone.
-Berserks can only be hit in melee (or point blank, which is my new favourite skill).
-Zombie dogs have three activations each time
-Standard zombies have a chance to make extra-activations, and break barricades.

I think balance between those types is really good.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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jonahmaul wrote:
(there really is no good reason for a dog to suddenly get better!).


But if you explain the dogs' bonuses as they give the handler enough time to make one (for the non-bulldogs) or two (for the bulldogs) extra swings with their equipped weapons, then the dogs do not suddenly get better. They do the same job, no matter what weapon/s the handler wields.

I find it very difficult to come up with a reason that explains only adding the dice to the attack rather than the weapons, though. The part that is hard to explain here is why the dog is more effective when the handler has a 3+ weapon instead of a 5+ weapon while it is no more effective if the handler is able to dual-wield.

I agree with the arguments that it is overpowered to take the rule as written, but I just don't agree any more with the argument that the dog gets better.

I think my house rule to neuter the bulldogs will be to treat them like the other dogs, allowing them to search, but they only add a +1 Die Melee skill, so a dual-wielder only gets two additional dice.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Clipper wrote:
jonahmaul wrote:
(there really is no good reason for a dog to suddenly get better!).


But if you explain the dogs' bonuses as they give the handler enough time to make one (for the non-bulldogs) or two (for the bulldogs) extra swings with their equipped weapons, then the dogs do not suddenly get better. They do the same job, no matter what weapon/s the handler wields.

The survivor is doing a good job in melee attacks He finds a dog and having a noisy yapping dog jumping around as a distraction gives him an edge in his attacks. He finds a second weapon and finds that he can go at it with two hands and be twice as effective. How in any of that is there anything about the dog getting better, rather than the basic rule that a dual weapon attack by a survivor is 2x? The reason that there is "no good reason for a dog to suddenly get better" is because it doesn't, so you are actually correct, and therefore the rule makes sense.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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longagoigo wrote:
How in any of that is there anything about the dog getting better, rather than the basic rule that a dual weapon attack by a survivor is 2x? The reason that there is "no good reason for a dog to suddenly get better" is because it doesn't, so you are actually correct, and therefore the rule makes sense.

What?
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Loophole Master wrote:
longagoigo wrote:
How in any of that is there anything about the dog getting better, rather than the basic rule that a dual weapon attack by a survivor is 2x? The reason that there is "no good reason for a dog to suddenly get better" is because it doesn't, so you are actually correct, and therefore the rule makes sense.

What?

Gotta love Sherlock Holmes.
 
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